Pellet Fan
All Things Considered => General Discussion--Non food Related => Topic started by: Kristin Meredith on September 23, 2018, 08:30:45 AM
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Yesterday, I wrote a post about how manufacturers don't seem inclined to send pits for testing -- and that I can understand why. When PH was founded in 2007, very few people knew what a pellet pit was. It took 3 years for that forum to grow to what our site was in 3 months. The first pit testing on PH was 2010 and generated a lot of interest because folks wanted to see what these new pits were about. Each new manufacturer to enter the market was glad for a PH test because of the exposure and also a place to refer people to look at stuff before purchase.
But we are more than 8 years on from that first review done by Bent. The pellet pit market has exploded, thousand own grills, thousand have lots of experiences and knowledge to share. And that got me to thinking, just like the testing of pellet pits, have the heyday of the pellet forum come and is now declining?
This is not about people praising this site or fearing that we are going to shut it down based on this poll. I am just genuinely curious about all of your thoughts. I vote yes -- forums such as this are in decline. And not because of the membership, but more because expertise is growing and so a place like this is not as needed. There will always be questions and folks new to the pellet pit and folks who like to share experiences, etc, but I wonder if the "wave" and crested and it is just gentle rolling surf from here on in?
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Kristin-I would say you nailed it.. W/ the problems the original pits had, people were desperate to find solutions to the problems. Sharing information was a big help in pit development. :2cents:
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It seems that PF continues to grow(correct me if I'm wrong), but on the whole, in the era of Facebook, aren't most forums like this fading away? Whenever I have to look up some info at a forum(like car repair of a certain model), it seems most of the posts are at least 5 years old.
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PH continues to attract new members as do we. I believe their post count and page views may be down. I really have not focused too much on stats as much as the type of content seen on these sites and people participating, asking questions, etc.
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Oops, I meant to say PF, not PH. Getting ready to crash after 12 hrs. at work last night!
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I think as the market has evolved, so have the manufacturers. Sending out a grill for review to a site that has lots of pageviews was relatively cheap advertising. Many of them didn't have very good marketing departments, but now look at what the commercials for Woodwind look like...professionally produced, entertaining and factual. Sure, lots of money spent there, but I bet the returns are significant. There's less need for a grassroots approach, because the demand is there and now they're crawling over each other to proclaim themselves "the best" which is not necessarily what a webforum (or facebook group for that matter) will give them. They actually have more to lose if they send out a review unit. "Fair reviews" generally benefit the consumer, not the company.
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I didn't vote because I am not sure this is the only forum I really frequent other than the pellet stove one, which is dead through the summer. But the whole social media Facebook mostly has a lot to do with it. Facebook is kind of like the internet on the internet, no matter what you are involved in there is a page or ten on FB. I belong to at least FB pellet groups, some are maker specific and each brand may have multiple pages put up by different folks. There are people that don't do FB and they may continue to seek out this type of forum. I know I see several PF members on the FB pages, so I know I am not the only one.
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Kristin,
With the wider acceptance and exposure to pellet grills, the manufacturer's need for low cost (to them) advertising through forum based reviews is quickly going away.
What will never go away is the need for forums where noobies like me can go to gain knowledge on how to effectively use pellet grills, as well as find great ideas and recipes.
It was also important to me to see what others' experiences were with their grills (highs and lows) prior to purchasing a grill.
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About all I can add is I am pretty much burnt out with forums in general! As BB King would have sung...
It is not a good thing when you could careless whether your forum makes it or not!
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I joined PF to get background on various pellet smokers and stay on because I find content provided by other contributors helpful. I think all forums go through multiple stages of growth and soul searching. I belong to another smoking forum which I do not frequent as often as I once did due to the content. How many times can you read about a newbie who wants to know if you can smoke water/mushrooms/iced tea or has just used ten times the amount of cure than he should have because Alton Brown/Youtube said so. PF, to my mind, provides a good balance of equipment/recipes/offtopic bitchin' and other comment. I am inclined to think that single topic forums are a dying breed.
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The first pit testing on PH was 2010 and generated a lot of interest because folks wanted to see what these new pits were about. Each new manufacturer to enter the market was glad for a PH test because of the exposure and also a place to refer people to look at stuff before purchase.
But we are more than 8 years on from that first review done by Bent. The pellet pit market has exploded, thousand own grills, thousand have lots of experiences and knowledge to share. And that got me to thinking, just like the testing of pellet pits, have the heyday of the pellet forum come and is now declining?
Am I to read into this that–
- Manufacturers are no longer eager for their units to be impartially tested?
- The manufacturers you contacted for test units have declined the opportunity?
Which manufacturers have declined?
I think that would be telling information.
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I will let Kristin answer your questions, but who is to say it is maybe site related and not just the Manufactures not wanting it done? I guess that is the Alcoholic mind at work!
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The first pit testing on PH was 2010 and generated a lot of interest because folks wanted to see what these new pits were about. Each new manufacturer to enter the market was glad for a PH test because of the exposure and also a place to refer people to look at stuff before purchase.
But we are more than 8 years on from that first review done by Bent. The pellet pit market has exploded, thousand own grills, thousand have lots of experiences and knowledge to share. And that got me to thinking, just like the testing of pellet pits, have the heyday of the pellet forum come and is now declining?
Am I to read into this that–
- Manufacturers are no longer eager for their units to be impartially tested?
- The manufacturers you contacted for test units have declined the opportunity?
Which manufacturers have declined?
I think that would be telling information.
I guess you would need to determine if the following is a decline or not:
1. I contact the manufacturer and let them know that we are interested in doing a product test
2. I tell them they can select the pit or pits to be tested, they can monitor the thread and respond to questions or comments by members, they can determine what to do with the pit after the test is complete
3. They have all said that sounds good, can we get back to you.
4. A few months go by and I contact again.
5. Again told sounds good, they will get back to me.
Several months have gone by and I am still waiting. When Bent was testing on PH, he and Larry had a waitlist of pits to be tested and some manufacturers contacted them. Different time, different situation, different consumer knowledge base?
I really don't want to say what companies have been involved because I don't think something should be read into not participating since there could be many reasons not to participate. And I really don't want manufacturers to think I am somehow blackmailing them into participating or otherwise I will tell the membership they did not want to. They are all well known and well established and have sent pits in the past. Perhaps their business models have grown beyond this type of testing. Or, as mentioned in the other thread, their products are changing and improving so rapidly that they see no benefit in a test which will be outdated in 2 years.
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Some years ago, we gave away a Traeger Jr. at werk. At that time, I had never heard of a pellet cooker. A couple years later, I blindly bought the same from amazon.
It was then that I searched the www for info and stumbled upon PH. It 'was' a vast wealth of info for me. After the crash, it has become irrelevant in my opinion. I get more posts here in 1 day than they get in a weekend.
I guess it all comes down to content and member interactivity. If your site sluffs into the 'read only' category, it's doomed. This appears to be the case with PH. The ruby slippers won't get you back to Kansas if all ya do is read about them.
That said, I don't now of many pellet smoker sites. Half a dozen maybe? Sure, there's a lot of places that make mention of pellet pits; but what is the content? Seems like passing questions/comments at best. Some 'pellet' sites are even ugly due to their 'brand' support. ???
I like it here (there's no place like home - there's no place like home).
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I believe in today day and age the forums compete with facebook as there are a number of pellet groups on them. That said IMO this Forum outshines them all
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I believe forums have declined mainly due to the emergence of larger social media sites such as Facebook. I don't think it's due to the popularity of pellet pits, it's people go looking for information more quickly, as many already have a facebook account etc. Also, most manufacturers have their own facebook pages, which people are naturally drawn to.
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I voted no. I have absolutely no data, facts, or insight to back me up. However, I would think forums would be in higher demand as there are more people purchasing pellet grills and usage is going up. The content and purpose of the forum may be constantly changing, i.e. going from techinical product reviews that can be found on other web sites to more Q and A about problems, tricks of the trade, recipes, etc.
No matter how the market changes, I think there will always be a need for a place to get and share information, ask questions, and be able to show other like minded folks what you have done. I feel this site is a place where I can safely ask questions, (even if they may seem silly to others) and know I won't get ridiculed, but I will get insightful answers. What is being produced in a forum like this probably has less to do with getting specific grill information and more about building relationships within a cyber community of people with a common interest.
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In my experience, the biggest danger to forums of any kind is Facebook.
The British BBQ Forum seemed to be going quite strong, until they also started a FB group, which basically sucked all the traffic away.
For one of my non-BBQ fora, I was persuaded to start an associated FB group (and it was either I form it, or someone else would have - this way I kept control). A good 50% of our membership now don't bother to post to the Forum, and I think my Forum only keeps the traffic it does because I ensure that any discussion about meetups and the like is conducted over on the website (as I make the cross-posts, I can ensure they at least have easy to use links, and commenting disabled on FB).
What do I have against Facebook? Nothing, I use it every day. I think it is great for sharing with friends - things that you have done today, photographs, opinions etc. Ephemeral stuff. But anything you want to be able to refer to in the future - advice, reviews, recipes etc., it is mostly useless after the post is a couple of weeks old.
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I really don't want to say what companies have been involved because I don't think something should be read into not participating since there could be many reasons not to participate. And I really don't want manufacturers to think I am somehow blackmailing them into participating or otherwise I will tell the membership they did not want to.
That's a reasonable stance.
When you contact the companies, can you talk with or even write to a decision maker, like a CEO, rather than some middle management functionary who may see supplying and retrieving a sample pit as work to be avoided?
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I really don't want to say what companies have been involved because I don't think something should be read into not participating since there could be many reasons not to participate. And I really don't want manufacturers to think I am somehow blackmailing them into participating or otherwise I will tell the membership they did not want to.
That's a reasonable stance.
When you contact the companies, can you talk with or even write to a decision maker, like a CEO, rather than some middle management functionary who may see supplying and retrieving a sample pit as work to be avoided?
Sorry, I did not modify or edit your post Paul, I just sometimes hit the wrong key when trying to quote a post. In a couple of instances, I know I am dealing with a mid-level person, but in a couple of other instances, I know I am dealing with the decision maker -- and sometimes folks I have personally met!
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I can't really fully answer the question... not in 4 choices.
This is the age of social media... forums like this, are not as 'hip' ( or whatever the young folk say these days ), as the newer forms of media. And, well honestly , the new forums of social media are not really quite as good for displaying the kinds of information that had been a part of the pellet forum now, or in the past. Search functions are darn near non existent on places like Facebook, and all that. Yeah, well technically they do have search functions, but I've never really found them all that great. It's very hard to find any information that's more than a few months old.
Ah, anyway... Seems with the more modern forms of internet media that are being used more frequently then these older style forums, the attention span is also growing shorter. People ask the same question repeatedly, often people grow weary of responding in a thought out manner, because in the long run their comments fade way into swamp of older questions and such. Yet, if you want the attention of most younger folk today, product marketers have to play that new media game... In some ways, the newer game is better for marketers , they can get their latest message out fast, and well, frankly if the old message didn't work, it fades into the distant past and largely becomes forgotten.
I do prefer forums like this from a technical point of view... but I fear this type of site , is getting closer to the ways of full service gas stations.
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I do prefer forums like this from a technical point of view... but I fear this type of site , is getting closer to the ways of full service gas stations.
Boy I hope not.
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Interesting points on the social media issues LSJ. I have no real understanding of social media beyond Facebook and I am only on that because of the puppy raising so really don't know all the things it is used for. Twitter and Instagram are just names to me and I have read some additional names of social media sites recently that I have no clue what they are about -- except that they all seem to be based in a "live in the moment" "look at me" crowd" which is not what this forum is about. Also goes a bit hand in hand with some "elitist" thoughts I have been having more and more.
I have begun to think it is fine and wonderful if the whole world wants to read this forum and learn from it. But I am starting to feel that "membership" should be more exclusive and limited to those who are at least checking into their accounts -- and I would probably go even further and say you need to have at least one post every six months. I would like to limit members to people who are contributing some content. I guess I think membership should carry a bit of responsibility and also be an indicator of a bit of distinction from folks who just casually drop by to read every week for a few minutes. I guess I also feel that if we are maintaining this forum for true members who appreciate what is happening here, then there is a point in continuing. So, you all may see membership numbers going backwards and become part of a smaller group which may become more difficult to join! (Also, if someone is trying to join and having issues, they need to email Bent directly -- I think he is somewhat burned out on the screening process. We have days with 20 to 25 registrants and not one is legit and I think it irritates him to the point of not caring if he approves anyone.)
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As some have mentioned FaceBook and other social media has pulled many from what we have considered traditional methods of attainable information. I have been a member of other forums ( not cooking, grilling or any related). The same problem is exhibiting itself. The use of a cell phone to be in contact, the speed in response from members, all of this is contributing to the decline.
Social media is the dominate direction unfortunately. One problem with Social media is the search function sucks, period. So this lends itself to having a static website so one can research a product from the manufactures or the sales site. A forum is not a product, but it is a means for people to communicate with others in a larger context than one on one using chat in Social media. That to me is a plus.
I have just about given up on traditional websites as a means of selling a product. ( I build electric guitars ) and currently do not have a website at this time. That does not mean I don't need one. Since the ability to Showcase the product is very important.
One thing I have noticed on Social media vs Website Forums, Post on forums has declined by 95% where on Social Media it has exploded exponentially.
Somewhere there will be a balance, what and when that is an unknown.
Just my 0.02cents.
Mike
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I voted no, because I don't believe it's pellet forums that are in a decline, if anything I think they'll continue to rise in popularity, it's forums in general that are in a decline.
The issue as other have mentioned is that Facebook, Twitter and Instagram have taken over. They are one stop shops for everything and are hard to beat. You can look at what people are cooking and cooking on at the same time you can share with your friends thoughts about the concert you are going to tomorrow, etc. Over the years, I've visited all kinds of forums from slot cars and RC, to cooking, to tools and project related. Today, this is the only forum I visit regularly. Some of that is that kids have limited my other hobbies. I think forums are dead yet, but all are likely moving that way eventually. However, I'd guess you'll still see a good forum following for a while, especially around pellet grills since they continue to grow in popularity.
Personally, I'll miss forums if they truly ever all die. It's nice to relax, read and interact about an interest without having to wade through a bunch of other xxxx I'm not in the mood for sometimes.
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I only do two forms of social media... One Facebook, the other Discord
Facebook is 'king' for the moment in social media, but as any of us who watch the news recently, there's potentially a big problem with Facebook and other forms of this type of social media.. that is, who keeps track of what's true or not.
I know one pellet group on Facebook , where you'll get banned if you say anything remotely negative about the brand being discussed... well, in fact there are more than one group like this. Other groups, darn near anything goes... But nothing is organized very well really.
I do Discord , only for a Playstation Car racing game I've become heavily into. The two groups I belong to get a lot of action, but again , not much organization to them. If I were to go away for a week, and come back, it'd be darn near impossible to catch up on what I missed. I'd basically just have to start from the new messages and just sort of ignore that I lost a weeks worth of discussion/context.
Anyway, I'm about ready to pull myself off of all social media, just because it can be such a huge distraction from life.
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I also voted no. So many reasons. The general public is absolutely clueless when it comes to BBQ and pellets. I'm mid 40's and maybe I'm the younger side here, but we'll be discussing our cooks for decades yet .... right here on PF. Facebook has nothing on this forum.
My father stopped by for lunch yesterday. He spoke of his friend getting this amazing pellet cooker (Timberline 1300) as if it were the best thing on the market. I showed him my Gator. It took a good 10 minutes to explain that the Traeger was an inferior product. He was absolutely certain that the Traeger was the pinnacle of this industry. Frankly his friend who spent $1800 on the Timberline felt same.
Maybe we're a niche hobbyist group. That's ok, but I want to add another thing: let's not diminish the value we're providing to the lurkers. I went from Bradley puck and gasser hack, to BBQ pit master because of PH and PF. I've actually got some skills now! Let's not talk about the past, but look towards the future.
DK
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This to shall pass, but thanks for your comments!
The Performance Tests I believe have run their course. I think that the manufactures may have thought about it and said...look, do I really want a PT that is 5, 8, X years old out there when my new line is so different. Larry and I had agreed just before his death that it was time to contact the Manufactures and explain that is how Pelletheads.com felt. Ask if they wanted to submit a new unit, and if they did not, we understood, but that any PT over 5 years old would be taken down. Their Manufactures section would stay intact, but we saw a great disservice to them by leaving a PT that old up on the site! But, Larry passed and the rest is moot for me.
I would like to continue the Product Reviews. Whether Members want to do that or not, I guess we will have to do a poll after the Camp Chef SG is finished and see what the community thinks and let folks through some items out there they would like to see a Reviews of!
Sorry to hear you're burnt out Bentley because you have built a very friendly and helpful meeting place for pellet grill users. I hope you find some help to ease your burden. Do you really need to invest your time in laborious product reviews? Am I the only one that thinks the site would still be great without you busting your butt doing them?
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Forums in general are in decline for all the reasons already mentioned - Social Media, Facebook, Instagram etc.
I like forums as they are easily searchable and do contain historical content.
Good luck searching FB for a post you saw 1, 3, 6 months ago!
Its just the current way of sharing information that has/is changing. Kind of like all the young people at work want chat
because they hate email?!?! Basically the same thing to me but they want it so they get it and now everyone has to search
2 things (email box and chat) for important messages!
Just my rambling thoughts
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I don't know if forums are over or not. I can tell you that I am a member of some various pellet grill Facebook groups and for the ones that I belong they are all wash, rinse, repeat:
1. I just got my new grill so how do you cook a brisket? This one gets asked a couple times a week.
2. I am having an issue with my grill. Either you are advised to call grill manufacturer's tech support or you get banned from the group. There is actually a banned certain grill manufacturer Facebook group. (can't call their baby ugly)
3. Look at the 1000th picture of grilled wings or ribs
I find myself only in FB about once per week as it gets kind of boring. I much prefer a forum like this one with honest dialogue where you can do research and learn/share information over extended periods of time (some topics can last over several days whereas on FB it has a lifespan of about a day). Lastly, many of the members on the forums are veterans of pellet cooking and not some Johnny come lately Youtube star trying to sell some half-baked cooking theory as well as pushing some free item that they were given to review.
I am sorry if some of my comments come off as cynical but I am just a bit jaded on social media bbq.
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I think FB is an absolutely garbage replacement for a web forum. Completely useless for holding reference content. I was on a few FB pellet groups, but quickly got fed up with the terrible signal/noise ratio. It's where information goes to die.
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Iv'e gotten so much info. I enjoy reading and learning from all the input. I'm so much more comfortable with my pit. I'm sure there are plenty of us that feel the same way. Thank you all for a great service and may it charge forward!
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Yesterday, I wrote a post about how manufacturers don't seem inclined to send pits for testing -- and that I can understand why. When PH was founded in 2007, very few people knew what a pellet pit was. It took 3 years for that forum to grow to what our site was in 3 months. The first pit testing on PH was 2010 and generated a lot of interest because folks wanted to see what these new pits were about. Each new manufacturer to enter the market was glad for a PH test because of the exposure and also a place to refer people to look at stuff before purchase.
But we are more than 8 years on from that first review done by Bent. The pellet pit market has exploded, thousand own grills, thousand have lots of experiences and knowledge to share. And that got me to thinking, just like the testing of pellet pits, have the heyday of the pellet forum come and is now declining?
This is not about people praising this site or fearing that we are going to shut it down based on this poll. I am just genuinely curious about all of your thoughts. I vote yes -- forums such as this are in decline. And not because of the membership, but more because expertise is growing and so a place like this is not as needed. There will always be questions and folks new to the pellet pit and folks who like to share experiences, etc, but I wonder if the "wave" and crested and it is just gentle rolling surf from here on in?
PH thrived because it found a niche and filled it. Manufacturers are not going to send their grills to a couple independents for a review any more. You can go to google reviews, etc. and get all of the independent reviews you would care to ever want for just about any manufacturer. That did not exist a decade ago. That part of PH has come and gone. The Era of the Pellet Forums is not in the past, but certain aspects that made PH great are no longer needed. Any new pellet grill forum will need to find a niche and fill it, like Larry did, if it ever wants to thrive like PH did.
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We are not looking to be what PH was. If anything, we are wanting to become more exclusive, not more expansive. I am just curious to know whether people even think forums like this have any real benefit anymore since pellet pits have become so much more mainstream.
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I honestly think they do, I still learn a lot and I am sure others do as well.
There is also something to be said about the camaraderie among members as well, its a site where you can get great ideas from knowledgeable & friendly people.
I know I am guilty of not always posting photos but I do wish there were more of them associated with some of the cooks and or ideas etc.
With the weather cooling off ours tend to get more use, we are not big BBQ fans anymore, hopefully others do as well with Turkey cooks, roast cooks etc.
Hope this site continues for a long time, we both enjoy visiting daily.
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I think it's the evolution of information, when i first had a computer my messaging was on fidonet, my messages were compiled and i'd upload them to a hub and that guy would compile all the other peoples message and upload them further. Next day later i'd download my messages and maybe get some answers. This was over modem, really slow but it worked. Then came CompuServe but i joined AOL which was a complete dial in service. it had groups, messaging, chat and other stuff but was expensive. move on a few years, faster connections, better software and forums. Today it's social media, information on tap, available on your pc, smart device, phone at the touch of the screen. You want info on a new pit, a search will find something. I don't think forums will disappear, i think they'll contract and lot of the more esoteric or frivolous ones will go but the 'grass roots' types will survive and remain relevant. I'm getting to be a dinosaur, i prefer a powerful pc on my desk with a large monitor, i have a smart phone but probably use about 20% of it capability. I know teens that don't own a pc or tablet, just a phone and they do everything on that. plus i'm sure they don't know a phone is held to the ear not in front of the face and spoken into on speaker :-)
Information delivery is constantly evolving.
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And I think what I have learned from the last about 2 years of Pelletheads and the last year here...That is what I am looking for! Pelletheads lost that for me even before Larry died! 95% of the folks I wanted from Pelletheads came along, so that made me happy!
There is also something to be said about the camaraderie among members as well, its a site where you can get great ideas from knowledgeable & friendly people.
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There is also something to be said about the camaraderie among members as well, its a site where you can get great ideas from knowledgeable & friendly people.
I believe that's one edge that forums may have over FB pages, They tend to get to clogged with members quickly & lose the personal touch of a forum.
When I started cooking with pellets there were only a few makers of pits. Today one can hardly keep up with what's out there.
As far as manufactures getting involved with us for testing. The market is flooded & I believe they their using other tools such as their own internet pages, You Tube, etc. Plus most folks today if they want to research something. Its all there @ your fingertips. :2cents: