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[Clonesmoker]

This thread kinda ties in to Bentley's post on the the New Year's day cook thread.  Can you overcure?  Currently on day 7 of a porkloin to Canadian Bacon cure.  People say they soak whatever they are curing in water to get rid of some of the salt out of the meat.  I assume this would relate on the cut of meat you are curing.  I looked at a dry cure and they will cure hams for months. Can't really see how you could overcure this.  Just never thought of the possilbilty of overcuring before.

The pork loins I am doing are rubbed with Prague powder, salt with either sugar/brown sugar/maple syrup and ziplock bagged in the fridge, turning them everyday. Got plenty of liquid in each over the past week. Does it matter on the salt whether it is regular or kosher. I would think most curing recommendations would tell you.  Just wanted to see if overcuring is possible in this setting or in a wet cure setting. TIA

[BigDave83]

My dry rub cure for CB is tenderquick and brown sugar, I usually try to go a week to 10 days, with that said I have left it for 3 weeks with no issues. I don't soak until I test a piece first.

I have always been told and read that you can under cure but not over cure

[mowin]

The meat with equalize with the brine, so you can't over cure assuming you used the correct amount of cure.  I've often had to delay a smoke because something came up.  My last batch of venison pastrami was in the bucket for 17 days.

[Bentley]

The only health issue (well assuming high Salt is not a health factor) is if you don't use the correct amount of cure.  To many ppm can be dangerous.  I believe the limit USDA or FDA who ever controls it is 250.  Equilibrium has been mentioned, and as long as the math is right, that takes care of time.

Does it matter on the salt whether it is regular or kosher.

Salt Brine Calculator
Courtesy of Genuine Ideas and thanks to Hector Asado of the Smoke, Fire & Food Forum

[sleebus.jones]

My method that I posted a long time ago elsewhere was the "excess salt" method, for lack of a better term.  Yes, if you go that route, and let it sit for a long period of time, you will end up with a very salty product.  Soaking will lower the salt content, but usually it needs to soak at least 4 hours to make a difference.   I have since moved on to the equilibrium method which Bentley mentioned.  This way I can leave stuff in the cure for a month (hey, its happened!), it turns out just fine and eliminates the time wasting soaking process.

For massaged/pumped meats, the maximum ingoing nitrite is 200 ppm.  For anything that you intend to fry, do not use a cure that contains nitrAte as nitrosamines can be formed during the cooking process when you exceed 266° F.  Note that Morton's Tender Quick contains BOTH nitrIte and nitrAte.  Federal regulations ban the use of nitrAte containing cures for bacon due to nitrosamine production during the cooking process.

Lots of info here: https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curing/nitrates

USDA stuff here: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/connect/7d364131-137e-4da3-905b-fa240974a5a9/7620-3.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

Bacon is on page 27, but if you don't want to go hunting for it, the relevant section is here:

Because of problems associated with nitrosamine formation in bacon, MPI Regulations, section
318.7(b)(1) and (3) prescribe the amounts of nitrite and sodium ascorbate or sodium erythorbate
(isoascorbate) to be used in pumped and massaged bacon. For the immersion curing and dry
curing of bacon, maximum amounts of sodium and potassium nitrite are prescribed in section
318.7(b)(5) and (6) of the MPI Regulations.

Establishment management must submit pickle formulas and the method(s) of preparing pumped
and/or massaged bacon to the processing staff officer at the appropriate regional office. The
pickle formula and targeted percent pump or pick-up must meet the limits listed below. Once the
procedure is approved, production may begin.
Regardless of the curing method used, restricted ingredient calculations for bacon are based on
the green weight of the skinless belly. For rind-on bacon, e.g., where the skin is sold as part of
the finished product, a restricted ingredient conversion calculation is necessary. Nitrate is no
longer permitted in any curing method for bacon.

[bregent]

>My method that I posted a long time ago elsewhere was the "excess salt" method, for lack of a better term.

The term I've seen is a Gradient Brine.

[LowSlowJoe]

I never did actually use 'excess salt' method...  I don't think I've ever used more than 2% salt in any of my cures.   I also tend to keep Nitrite levels at or very close to the USDA rules, so I really never went beyond 200 PPM  and pretty regularly stay at 120 PPM.   So, I'm effectively doing a equilibrium style of cure...   

  What I've observed is that for something really lean like pork loin, for 'Canadian bacon' , the cure will get to the center easily in 5 days... I feel I could go as many as 14 days without any problems.  My ideal time would be 7 days on most pork loin. 

   With Pork belly, it can be a little different , because of fat layers... fat acts like a pretty darn good barrier to the cure getting deep into the meat, so the more fat , the longer it takes.   Most of the pork belly I get is pretty lean and around 1.75" thick and for this , I pretty much go with the same time frame as pork loin... from 5 to 14 days with 7 days being pretty sure bet that the cure penetrated all the way to the center.  For a thicker belly and/or one that has a lot more fat, I'd  probably be willing to add 2 to 3 days longer, where 10 days would likely be what I would shoot for on a thicker/fattier belly... but still I would not likely ever go much beyond 14 days, not because I was worried about over curing, but because I just don't think it's a good idea...  Having said that , if for some reason on the 14th day I just couldn't get around to smoking the cured belly , I'd have no real problem extending out to 18 days or so and wouldn't really worry about it being unhealthy or even 'bad'.

   If your using too much salt, or worse yet, way too much Nitrite or nitrate all bets are off...   If I accidentally put in like 500 PPM nitrite or more... I'd probably just scrap the batch... with too much salt, i'd probably try to soak it in fresh water to save it.

[sleebus.jones]

>My method that I posted a long time ago elsewhere was the "excess salt" method, for lack of a better term.

The term I've seen is a Gradient Brine.

Thanks!  I'll use that from now on.

Also, to clarify my earlier statements:

• If you're gonna fry your product, use Cure #1 only.
• If you're going to long-term dry cure the meat, use Cure #2 (think charcuterie).  Since Tender Quick has NitrItes and NitrAtes, it falls into the Cure #2 category.  Don't use it on things that you intend to fry/cook.
  

[Ssteppe]

+1, sort of.
Pink salt #1 is for short term cures, foods that will be cooked an eaten fairly quickly. Pink salt #2 is for dry, long term cures (Virginia hams that hang for months,  etc.)

Tender Quick is actually a short term cure, and the food needs to be cooked. It's much less concentrated than pink salt. You can use it for wet cures (Canadian bacon), or you can mix it with ground beef to make salami, cooked after 5-7 days of curing. I've used Pink salt #1, Tender Quick, and Morton's Sugar Cure, making bacon, Canadian bacon, salami, quick-cured pork chops (Tender Quick), and a wet cured ham.

I've never used Pink salt #2 - long dry cures require the proper temperature (50-58 F) and humidity to prevent spoilage, and I don't have the equipment.

>My method that I posted a long time ago elsewhere was the "excess salt" method, for lack of a better term.

The term I've seen is a Gradient Brine.

Thanks!  I'll use that from now on.

Also, to clarify my earlier statements:

• If you're gonna fry your product, use Cure #1 only.
• If you're going to long-term dry cure the meat, use Cure #2 (think charcuterie).  Since Tender Quick has NitrItes and NitrAtes, it falls into the Cure #2 category.  Don't use it on things that you intend to fry/cook.
  

[sleebus.jones]

The problem is that Tender Quick contains both nitrItes and nitrAtes.  This is the ingredient list:

Salt
Sugar
0.5% Sodium Nitrite (preservative)
0.5% Sodium Nitrate (preservative)
Propylene Glycol

As I mentioned before, nitrAte is no longer permitted by the USDA for curing bacon (or anything that you intend to fry, really) due to the carcinogenic nitrosamines that form.  Tender Quick contains nitrAtes, so I don't use it for anything that I'm going to fry.  Making hams, salami, etc. are just fine.  If you like to fry up and crisp your Canadian bacon, I wouldn't use Tender Quick, and definitely wouldn't use it for curing bacon.

[Clonesmoker]

Since I have the iSmokeHog's Cure Calculator app on my iPhone, I use it all the time.  Finished with 9 lbs of Canadian bacon yesterday afternoon (notice the St. Louis style ribs on the bottom 2 rack of 'em- one with maple syrup for glue the other with molasses as glue in the second picture.)The piece was cured using the 2% salt 1% sugar and 156 ppm of Prague Powder#1.  The top or left section of loin in each picture is the one cured using maple syrup instead of sugar (doubled the amount of syrup though), the second one is using regular sugar and the third using dark brown sugar (50% increase on the brown sugar compared to regular sugar.

I washed, dried and then added additional maple syrup to the one and put some additional brown sugar on one I cured with brown sugar. The regular sugar one I did nothing to. Smoked for 2 hours at 150 and then and additional two hours at 250 to get to an IT of 140. Off the smoker and into the fridge they went. Tasted tested the brown sugar and maple syrup to see if there was a flavor difference. I could get a little maple flavor on the one but the brown sugar one just had a tad sweet taste to it. All in all I was pretty pleased with it and I was able to double the fun by having the ribs on the bottom for better efficiency of pellet usage and the ribs stayed on the grill for an additional two hours. I sauced at the 5.5 hour mark on the ribs. Sorry no pics of the ribs. My two boys pretty much attacked them and left me and the wife with about 3 bones each.

[sleebus.jones]

Mmmmm!  Looks good!

[Ssteppe]

As I mentioned, Tender Quick is MUCH less concentrated than Pink salt #1. Perfectly fine for Canadian bacon - Morton's even has a recipe for it on their website:
http://www.mortonsalt.com/article/meat-curing-canadian-bacon/

The problem is that Tender Quick contains both nitrItes and nitrAtes.  This is the ingredient list:

Salt
Sugar
0.5% Sodium Nitrite (preservative)
0.5% Sodium Nitrate (preservative)
Propylene Glycol

As I mentioned before, nitrAte is no longer permitted by the USDA for curing bacon (or anything that you intend to fry, really) due to the carcinogenic nitrosamines that form.  Tender Quick contains nitrAtes, so I don't use it for anything that I'm going to fry.  Making hams, salami, etc. are just fine.  If you like to fry up and crisp your Canadian bacon, I wouldn't use Tender Quick, and definitely wouldn't use it for curing bacon.

[sleebus.jones]

As I mentioned, Tender Quick is MUCH less concentrated than Pink salt #1.

The USDA doesn't say use "MUCH less" they say use of nitrAte in bacon is no longer permitted.  That's good enough for me, I am puzzled as to why it's not good enough for you?

Furthermore, Pink salt #1 is totally fine for use in bacon because it does not have any nitrAtes in it.  It is nitrIte only.  TQ has both nitrIte and nitrAte, which is why I say it's a bad idea if you intend to fry your product like many people do.

If you intend to take your final product over 266° F, don't use TQ.  It's that simple.

[Bentley]

I cook my bacon in oven at 350° so I am confused.  Is it frying that causes the nitrosamines or the temperatures at which it is cooked? Or the IT of the meat?  I cant imagine my bacon ever gets higher then 210° even when I deep fry it!