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[BC Buck]

I was certified a BBQ judge and have done some events this year. They brought in some teams to supply entry's  for for the class and I thought it was well done. I fully understand the appearance, taste, and tenderness aspect. My hangup is the 7,8,9 mentality with anything under 7 needing a comments card. I feel it would be more beneficial to teams to start judging with 6 as a average and 8 and 9s for knock your socks off Q. I know most you guys compete and also judge and would appreciate your input.

[Kristin Meredith]

I actually think most folks on this forum don't compete or judge, so don't be surprised if you don't get a lot of replies.  I am one contest short of my Master certification and stopped judging in 2014 -- Bent thinks I'm crazy that I didn't judge just one more comp and get my Master, but I felt I could not give it my best effort and so did not want to be unfair to any teams.

I was certified at the 2003 AR and both competed and judged for many years.  The only reason I give you this background is that judging standards changed over my tenure and for all I know have changed again and judges may be being told something different.

When I started, we were told that most entires would be a 6 and then to start adding points as we felt the entry warranted.  Then, at some point, it changed, and we were told that we should start with a 9 and then start deducting points.  Frankly, I think that system lead to a lot of "grade inflation" which I believe is borne out by the number of teams getting 180s -- a rare occurence back in 2003.  So I would prefer to go back to the "6 and work your way up" -- but I don't know how they are instructing judges these days.

[yorkdude]

The only thing I can say having never judged is that I am glad I don't. It is so subjective from what I have seen and I have eaten things that were judged poorly by others and I thought they were great and vice-versa. By judged I mean other people eating the food, not competition type judging.
I also have cooked many things that I have frowned upon over the years that others have raved about?
Hats off to you though for wanting to hone your craft, probably not many would put forth the effort necessary.

[Bentley]

I will be honest, as a Master CBJ, I do not know what you are asking me to help you with.

[triplebq]

I was certified a BBQ judge and have done some events this year. They brought in some teams to supply entry's  for for the class and I thought it was well done. I fully understand the appearance, taste, and tenderness aspect. My hangup is the 7,8,9 mentality with anything under 7 needing a comments card. I feel it would be more beneficial to teams to start judging with 6 as a average and 8 and 9s for knock your socks off Q. I know most you guys compete and also judge and would appreciate your input.

I assume based on your question you are talking about KCBS events. I'm an active judge and have been judging for about 5 years or so. The comment cards are to help explain your judging score to the cook team. As you can imagine when a team turns in an entry and gets a 5,6,7 score, they want to know why. Now I can tell you no matter what you put on the comment card, most will not going to be happy.

As a judge you have the ability to judge an entry anyway you see fit. If you want to start judging with a 6 and move up or down that is totally up to you. For example say you have a great piece of chicken. You start with a 6 and after tasting the entry you end up giving it an 8. I start with a 9 and after tasting the entry I also end up with an 8. At the end of the day we both feel the chicken is an 8. Does it really matter that you started with a 6 and I started with a 9?

[Bentley]

Have the instructions given by KCBS classes changed? 

If not your statement about starting at 6 is not correct.  If the rules have changed, I guess a judge can choose to disregard what has been taught and use whatever standards they want.  If so, it might explain why I believe this happens more and more over the last 7 years and is a reason why cooking KCBS competitions has been less desirable for me.  If not, I don't need rogue judges using their arbitrary rules when I compete.

I was certified a BBQ judge and have done some events this year. They brought in some teams to supply entry's  for for the class and I thought it was well done. I fully understand the appearance, taste, and tenderness aspect. My hangup is the 7,8,9 mentality with anything under 7 needing a comments card. I feel it would be more beneficial to teams to start judging with 6 as a average and 8 and 9s for knock your socks off Q. I know most you guys compete and also judge and would appreciate your input.

I assume based on your question you are talking about KCBS events.  If you want to start judging with a 6 and move up or down that is totally up to you.

[triplebq]

When I took my judging class years ago there wasn't a rule that says you start with a given score and work from there. I have never heard of that from any of the reps also. I have always been told by the reps to give a score based on what you feel it deserves. I have never been told to start at a certain score.

[MustangBob]

The only thing I can say having never judged is that I am glad I don't. It is so subjective from what I have seen and I have eaten things that were judged poorly by others and I thought they were great and vice-versa. By judged I mean other people eating the food, not competition type judging.
I also have cooked many things that I have frowned upon over the years that others have raved about?
Hats off to you though for wanting to hone your craft, probably not many would put forth the effort necessary.

The purpose and intent of the KCBS judging class is to teach potential judges about the characteristics of the KCBS defined "standard' of results and to steer judges away from personal subjectivity based on your own preferences of taste, texture, & appearance.

In other words, KCBS defines the 'target' and the judges try to evaluate the entry relative to that defined target they were taught in class.

Of course, this approach is not perfect, but it is much more 'objective' than having your friends or a local celebrity evaluate your food based on what they personally like or don't like.

[Bentley]

Well I have been a judge since 2003 and at that time it was start with 6 and grade up or down accordingly , about 3 to 4 years later it was start at 9 and take points off, so obviously KCBS has changed.  I quit judging about the time you started, so things are different now.

When I took my judging class years ago there wasn't a rule that says you start with a given score and work from there. I have never heard of that from any of the reps also. I have always been told by the reps to give a score based on what you feel it deserves. I have never been told to start at a certain score.

[BC Buck]

The purpose and intent of the KCBS judging class is to teach potential judges about the characteristics of the KCBS defined "standard' of results and to steer judges away from personal subjectivity based on your own preferences of taste, texture, & appearance.

In other words, KCBS defines the 'target' and the judges try to evaluate the entry relative to that defined target they were taught in class.

Of course, this approach is not perfect, but it is much more 'objective' than having your friends or a local celebrity evaluate your food based on what they personally like or don't like.



Lets practice for my help. Where all at the same table and entry's brisket looks really nice so we score it a 9. We pick it up and 3/16"slice bends 180 degrees and snap test is perfect scoring tenderness of 9. You taste and a little bland with a roast beef flavor. I would like to give a score of 6 (average). What do you guys think?


From Kristin Meredith -- I am sorry, I hit the wrong key and modied your post.  I have returned some of the original.  I apologize profusely.

[Kristin Meredith]

Was told most entry's will be scored 9,8,7 and if really poor 6 or less.




 KCBS wants the judges to use the following scoring system:
 9 = excellent
 8 = very good
 7 = above average
 6 = average,
 5 = below average
 4 = poor
 3 = bad
 2 = inedible
 1 = DQ.

So 6 is average and 4 is poor and I interpret "really poor" to be a 3.  So, whatever reps are putting out that judging criteria you state above are just dead wrong in my book.  But, as I mentioned earlier, no wonder the scores are so high anymore.  That is not judging, that statement is the equvalent of everyone gets a participation trophy.  Why compete?

[Kristin Meredith]

Lets practice for my help. Where all at the same table and entry's brisket looks really nice so we score it a 9. We pick it up and 3/16"slice bends 180 degrees and snap test is perfect scoring tenderness of 9. You taste and a little bland with a roast beef flavor. I would like to give a score of 6 (average). What do you guys think?

To me, picking up a slice and somehow measuring its thickness and bend and "snap test" are all very minor things that I use to score tenderness.  I could not give brisket a 9 on those 3 "tests" so I don't know how to assist you.  Tenderness is mainly determined by me in biting and eating, so I can't be of any help if those are your criteris.  I would certainly not give a brisket a 9 on tenderness on those alone.

What does bland mean to you?  Are you looking for heat? Salt? BBQ sauce? Char?  And again, what is roast beef flavor?  What flavor are you looking for? I love roast beef, so does that mean I give it a 9?

[BC Buck]

So 6 is average and 4 is poor and I interpret "really poor" to be a 3.  So, whatever reps are putting out that judging criteria you state above are just dead wrong in my book.  But, as I mentioned earlier, no wonder the scores are so high anymore.  That is not judging, that statement is the equvalent of everyone gets a participation trophy.  Why compete?

This is exactly what im getting at.


To me, picking up a slice and somehow measuring its thickness and bend and "snap test" are all very minor things that I use to score tenderness.  I could not give brisket a 9 on those 3 "tests" so I don't know how to assist you.  Tenderness is mainly determined by me in biting and eating, so I can't be of any help if those are your criteris.  I would certainly not give a brisket a 9 on tenderness on those alone.


Yes I agree there are many more variables that are used in judging tenderness. These listed above are taught to new judges to keep teams from serving big thick or paper thin slices because the pitmaster missed his mark.


What does bland mean to you?[/glow]  1.lacking strong features or characteristics and therefore uninteresting:
Are you looking for heat? Salt? BBQ sauce? Char?[/glow]  Any of the above.
I also love roast beef but the slice we just took a bite out of did not say competition quality brisket. My question, is it fair to him to give a 7,or 8 and next weekend do the same cook wondering why he never gets a call.[/b]



Edited to change red color to blue.  We ask that only admin use red.

[Kristin Meredith]

OK, again not really understanding.  For tenderness, you listed 3 characteristics and then said based on those the cook gets a 9.  My response is, those aren't biggies to me, just minor factors.  I need to bite and chew.  So I don't know that I can help you any further unless you also agre that you should not be giving a 9 based on those 3 factors.  I am just a bit confused as to your state of mind right now.

I guess I think that if a piece of brisket had absolutely no flavor -- was lacking in salt, pepper, maybe a rub or some flavor -- it was just there like a piece of unflavored tofu -- then that is not a 6, because that is not average. To me, that is a 5 and below average and I write a card saying:"Your brisket had no flavor -- you need some seasonings and to do something to have a flavour profile on this meat."  If it is too salty (I mean REALLY salty), too hot, absolutely slathered in sauce so that all you taste is sauce, I give t a 5 and tell the cook exactly why I think it is below average.  Writing the card makes me articulate why I think this is below. Moisture also plays into my scores on flavor, so if something has a superior flavor but is dry as dust, that factors into my flavor score.

If I think an entry is just "there" -- ok on seasoning, but not standing out, ok balance of flavors but nothing again is making me want to take a 3rd, 4th and 5th bite, not dry, but not really mmoist, then I give a 6 and tell them just that -- you entry was ok, but I did not want to eat more because X,Y and Z.

[triplebq]

Any event that gives scores based on a person's opinion is subjective.

BC Buck, based on your description you would give that slice of brisket a 9 (Appearance) 6 (Taste) 9 (Tenderness). If that is what you feel then that is OK. I might sample that same slice of brisket and give it a 9 8 9 or a 9 5 9. There is no way everyone is going to agree because judging is subjective.