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[BigDave83]

I did not see Cuomo's news conference but, but it truly surprises me that they didn't spin it to their narrative with something like: Those infected at home had caught the virus because others that were not sheltering in place passed it on to them, which goes to show how sheltering in place can save lives.

[okie smokie]

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said Wednesday that a survey showed that a "shocking" two-thirds of patients recently hospitalized for coronavirus became infected despite largely staying at home.

Hospitals were asked to document where their most recent COVID-19 patients had been staying before admission, Cuomo said, and 66 percent came from their own homes.

About 18 percent came from nursing homes, 4 percent from assisted-living facilities, 2 percent were homeless, 2 percent had been at other "congregate" settings, fewer than 1 percent were prison or jail inmates, and 8 percent were classified as "other."

"This is a surprise," the governor told reporters at the Feinstein Institutes for Medical Research in Manhasset, New York. "Sixty-six percent of the people were at home, which is shocking to us."

The data came from 113 hospitals reporting information on patients being treated over three recent days, according to state health officials.

"They're not working; they're not traveling," Cuomo said of these recently hospitalized coronavirus patients. "We were thinking that maybe we were going to find a higher percent of essential employees who were getting sick because they were going to work — that these may be nurses, doctors, transit workers. That's not the case. They were predominantly at home."

What do stay at home New Yorkers have in common:
Tight living accommodations, small apartments(most), common heating and a/c in many (so they are breathing the same air throughout the apartment building-at least in the older units).  Very few areas of single unit housing.  They might have been better off living outside with social gathering rules of separation?? I may not be totally correct but I suspect living at home for them is not the same as living at home for many of us.  So I can't take that info with confidence in the implications. I doubt that there are many neighborhoods in NYC with single free standing homes.  Also--if your most vulnerable people even stay at home, they will still probably produce a high number of victims because of their vulnerability. (Contradictions are welcome)

[Kristin Meredith]

I have wondered the same thing about the NYC ill OkieSmokie for those that live in the city   But some of the numbers for NYC also involve Long Island with single family homes.  So much more info would be needed (and welcomed) in order to really analyze.  But it does bring me back to a point I have made before -- one size does not necessarily fit all.  Maybe they would have been better to let some of these folks travel to second homes or relatives out of the city, etc.

[ICIdaho]

I think NYC is like the rest of the country in that many of the shelter in place people lived with an essential worker.  I think very few people, as a percentage, were truly not in contact with anyone.  That is why I have questioned these shut downs and were they really necessary or worth the destruction they have caused for the few that it truly sheltered.  NYC is also shoulder to shoulder compared to the majority of the country and they were still using the subways as transportation.  Some of those buildings hold more people than the majority of the towns in my area.

[Trooper]

I go out every day.
As a part time driver - I get in about 10 hours a week.
When I'm not driving, I look for excuses to get out.
I'm a regular customer at Home Depot, Walgreens, & Wal-Mart.
I can't stand to just sit around the house and try to find something to keep me occupied.
Last Sunday morning I left home @ 5AM for Mears, Mi to take some photos with my drone. Lovely road trip. If anyone want to take a road trip, joust journey over to W.Michigan and I'll find us a picnic table. Probably JDMessner will join in.

[ZCZ]

Stats from MN:
534 total deaths as of yesterday.  434 of those (about 81%) are from people in nursing homes.  26 deaths yesterday.  25 of the 26 were people in nursing homes.  Of the 26 deaths yesterday 10 were in their 90's, 9 were in their 80's, 5 in their 70's and two in their 60's.  68% of the MN deaths are from Hennepin County (Minneapolis metro).  Of all the MN deaths only 15% required hospitalization (which means 85% did not).
I would guess these stats are very similar across the country.
So why are we under lock-down again?

Lock-downs will be lifted across the country NOT because of science and medical reasons but because of the huge budget shortfalls that the states are experiencing and when polling shows it may effect them come the November election.  THEN the lock-downs will be lifted.
 
Al

[dk117]

ok I have a question, one I think we've danced around.  I feel comfortable posting here whereas not on social media. 

Stay at home and save lives.

OK does that imply I have a moral and civic obligation to do my best at social distancing?   Sure. 

(A) Does that mean if I unknowingly contract COVID and accidentally and unknowingly infect others that I am morally and maybe even legally responsible for their infection and potential death?

Honestly I don't think so.  (B) I am not killing those potentially impacted folks, COVID is.   

Does that resonate with anyone else?  Assuming I am doing the best I can (or at least making an effort) during these unprecedented times?

(A) If you suffer a health issue while driving and accidentally and unknowingly injure someone, are you responsible?  Sure.  Who else could be considered responsible?  Legally responsible?  As in a lawsuit?  I don't know of a precedent.

(B) A novel defense.  "I didn't kill him, the bullet did."

Pellet Fan and friendly debates are my two favorite pastimes.  This thread lets me combine the two.  Yay!   

I appreciate the response, PF is indeed a place for friendly debates.  But in the case of the gun, I would have pulled the trigger and the bullet would have killed.  I'm responsible.  In this (albeit theoretical) case I have done absolutely nothing but ... grocery shopping?  And COVID maybe stowed away on me? 

I really think there is something here, and I'm not sure I'm articulating myself properly.  I am my brothers keeper.  Great, but does that include responsibility for this microbe we call a virus?   Unknowingly using me a vessel to infect others?    I'd argue it's quite a bit different than the bullet killed defense. 

[pmillen]

But in the case of the gun, I would have pulled the trigger and the bullet would have killed.  I'm responsible.  In this (albeit theoretical) case I have done absolutely nothing but ... grocery shopping?  And COVID maybe stowed away on me?

I don't believe that things just happen.  I think, in every case, someone caused them to happen through action or inaction.  Granted, the event may be unintentional.  So now I have to decide if, in this case, there's a link between cause and accountability or blame.

I think that the Spanish explorers who unintentionally introduced mosquitoes to other parts of the world by transporting them in their water casks were to blame because they transported the stow-away larvae.

[Kristin Meredith]

Interesting train of thought Paul. So should we not explore?  Should we not be in space right now?  We may be transporting things to other planets or the solar system by having craft in space.

[pmillen]

Interesting train of thought Paul. So should we not explore?  Should we not be in space right now?  We may be transporting things to other planets or the solar system by having craft in space.

Yes, we might be.  And we would be at fault if we didn't take the necessary precautions to not carry microbes to other planets.

It seems to me that I read that the plains Indians were susceptible to smallpox that was brought to them, initially by accident.  Those settlers didn't plan to spread smallpox that they carried, but they did.  I view them as being to blame for a smallpox epidemic. 

[Kristin Meredith]

Interesting train of thought Paul. So should we not explore?  Should we not be in space right now?  We may be transporting things to other planets or the solar system by having craft in space.

And we would be at fault if we didn't take the necessary precautions to not carry microbes to other planets.

But there were no precautions settlers could take via smallpox, there were no vaccines or knowledge of diseases and how they work. The only thing they could do is not come to America to start with.  Same with space.  What if we believe we are doing everything we can, but we still transmit something.  We are humans, not perfect, so our knowledge is not perfect.

Also, veneral disease was transmitted to Europe via native American tribes.  In some cases, women may have slept with men willingly, in some cases I am sure it was rape.  Are the women who transmitted the disease at fault, or the men who slept with them?  If it was transmitted via consensual sex, does that make the woman native American responsible?

[slaga]

I am playing devil's advocate a bit but it seems to me, if you did not know the gun was loaded (you are a carrier of COVID-19 unknowingly), and you pull the trigger (choose to not wear a mask in public places with a high density of people), you are not responsible for the damage the bullet does (who you infect with the virus).

[okie smokie]

I am playing devil's advocate a bit but it seems to me, if you did not know the gun was loaded (you are a carrier of COVID-19 unknowingly), and you pull the trigger (choose to not wear a mask in public places with a high density of people), you are not responsible for the damage the bullet does (who you infect with the virus).

Ah but the rule is that the gun is always loaded!

[Kristin Meredith]

I guess I am in the "assumption of the risk" category. 

Unless you have been living in a cave somewhere, we as a society are pretty well informed about all aspects of COVID-19.  We also have so many means of truly just staying in our bubbles if we so choose -- communication by phone and computer, home entertainment options (heck, I can take classes at Oxford University if I wish),drive-thru pharmacies, groceries either delivered or ordered on-line and brought to your car, doctors by computer consultation.  You do not have to have any contact with anyone if you do not feel safe venturing out.  So, if you venture out, you assume a certain risk.  Again, I believe in a level of personal responsibilty for your own safety.

[pmillen]

But there were no precautions settlers could take via smallpox, there were no vaccines or knowledge of diseases and how they work.

True.  But as I wrote, "Those settlers didn't plan to spread smallpox that they carried, but they did."  Since they spread the disease, I view them as being to blame for spreading it.  Who else would you blame?  Or don't you blame anyone?

So, I submit that space explorers will be at fault if they take a disease to another planet.