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Author Topic: Pizza styles  (Read 6138 times)

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Free Mr. Tony

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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2020, 05:07:31 AM »

FMT great write up!  I worked in a pizza place back in college named Mazzio's (local Oklahoma chain whose thin crust pizza was very similar to Pizza Hut).  For our thin crust we would use a machine to roll out the dough.  We would then perforate the dough and the add it to the pan.  We ran it through a Blodgett conveyor belt oven and when it came out (after about an 8 minute run) we would remove the pizza from the pan and put back in the oven to let it cook an additional minute to help ensure that the bottom was crispy.  I think that the oven ran at about 500 deg F.

Thanks for the info. I checked the place out on Yelp. The thin looks very similar to pizza hut. If I cook mine in a pan (other than Detroit), I almost always slide it out to go directly on the stone or firebrick in the wood oven for the last few minutes.

I've also had some of my larger failures doing that as well. If you are making a 16" pizza in a pan and you try to take it out a tad early, it's fairly easy to rip a giant hole in the bottom on the transfer. It's happened more than once to me.
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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2020, 12:36:29 PM »

Thank you FMT, that was an excellent tutorial. I like my pizza crust to be crunchy all over, especially on the bottom. What are the key factors in obtaining crust with crunchy bottoms?

For the hand-tossed or rolled out types that sit directly on the stone or cooking floor, its a function of time, temperature, and hydration.  If you want it crisp like a cracker, you need basically all of the moisture cooked out of the crust.  If you want NY you still want some moisture left but not nearly as much as Neapolitan.  For the pan pizza styles, oil or a cooking spray on the pan kind of fries the bottom of the crust to a certain extent.  You may not be cooking as much moisture out but there is a fat involved, which changes the equation.  As to your specific question, starting with a lower hydration would be my first step.

As just an observation with no data personally to back it up, I've gotten more crisp from doughs that sit in the fridge for at least a day or two.  I'm not sure what the science is there, but I have noticed that over time.  Not to say you can't get a crisp crust from a dough cooked on the same day, but there is something about that fermentation time that plays into it. 

If you can't get it as crisp as you would like, you would need to play with the hydration, time, and temp.  There are a variety of other factors including the balance of temps above and below the pizza.  Obviously the goal is to get the crust exactly as you like at the same time the toppings are at the perfect stage of doneness.  You could nerd out all day on how to accomplish that, but trial and error is probably the easiest when it is all said and done. 

Brand, temp, moisture, and fat content of everything including the sauce, cheese, and toppings all play into how your crust will ultimately turn out.  You could have the most perfect crust ever mixed, but if topped the wrong way it can be a disaster.  Take a crust that is usually crispy that would be stretched thin.  Put too much sauce on, pile on a bunch of raw vegetables, and then top with a cheese that starts to get oily at high temperatures.  You will end up with soup instead of pizza.  I tried a new cheese out recently that is fairly well respected in the pizza world.  Grande 50/50 mix of Mozz and Provolone.  I used it twice, and both times the pizza ended up with pools of water in the center.  I haven't really done the research to figure out why yet, but I assume I probably cooked it too hot and it fatted out on me.  Based on the fact that pizzerias all over the country use this cheese, there has to be something on my end that is causing it to do that.  Cooked at 450 in a conveyer oven may melt that cheese wonderfully on a different kind of pizza.  It will not be going on mine again until I figure out what is happening.

You may have gotten more crisp on your longer fermented dough because you may have started to have more moisture leak out of the dough from the additional fermentation time. On a pizza stone or steel, that moisture, usually on the outer sides of the crust will sear off quickly and provide crisp, versus a less fermented dough which will hold more of that moisture in the dough when heated at the contact point.

Thin crust has a couple different categories.
1. Roman style.  The picture of what you show looks similar to a roman style that shows bubbling when cooked.
2. Plain old thin. Flat, no bubbles, properly portioned toppings.
3. Tavern Style -This can even include pie-like crusts like Home Run Inn pizzas where crust has more oil in the crust versus the overly topped Milwaukee, Minnesotan, or Midwest style where the pizza is overly topped and generally cut in squares. The crust is more of a means to carry the toppings in most of these cases than something appreciated.

Regarding your cheese watering, depending on whether your cheese was shredded, crumbled/balled, diced, or sliced, each of those factors can affect it's melting characteristics. Keeping your cheese very cold (or some add it frozen) to prevent the watering from happening. It's breaking down from cooking too long which is releasing that moisture.



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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2020, 12:54:34 PM »

More great information for us pizza nubies. Thanks
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Free Mr. Tony

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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2020, 05:27:58 PM »

Thanks for the info MN-smoker. That all makes sense.

The tavern style that you mention is one I haven't had great luck with yet. We have many places here that serve that style. One of the more prominent being Pizza King. This photo is from Yelp. Not my photo.


They hit the spot a couple times a year. I have not tried too many times on this style but typically the crust won't hold up real well to all the toppings. Like you said, overtopped. Those places seem to have this little tiny crust but it somehow holds up when overtopped. Haven't figured that one out yet.

Most of the truly local places around here specialize in plain old thin or the tavern. Other than chains, there are some variety but the old Midwestern pizza still is most prominent.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 07:21:28 PM by Free Mr. Tony »
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MN-Smoker

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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2020, 09:56:59 AM »

Here in Minnesota they refer to it as it's own style, but it's largely Tavern Pizza.

This first one is from Carbone's, which is a small chain up here. The crust is thin and pale in color. Very little structure to it and no crisp. It's overloaded with cheese. The cheese itself does more to hold the pizza together than the crust.





This next one is from Red Savoy pizza. It was a single location and has grown into a Minnesota chain. It's probably considered the best pizza of THIS style in Minnesota.  This crust is baked usually on a conveyor air impingement oven which provides a crust that has some structure, but not enough to hold a triangle slice, thus the squared. Again, an overload of toppings.  Savoy has a "zestier" sauce than most pizzas found in Minnesota.

The heavy load of toppings is popular here because of the perception of value. Crust without toppings is seen as waste, and we like big portions when buying food at restaurants so we get our monies worth.




This photo is from Home Run Inn.  (Found on web). When most people discuss "Tavern Style" pizza, Home Run Inn is moreless considered the founder. Home Run Inn started serving pizza (and really salty pizza at that) to their customers to get them to drink more beer. The pizza was served in squares so more people could get a taste and it was free for visitors. The pizza gained popularity and they started selling them.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 10:00:04 AM by MN-Smoker »
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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2020, 10:08:17 AM »

Here is a fun video to watch on "Roman Thin" pizza.  Scrocchiarella

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWCY9UlTNEI

The crust is rolled out very thin.



There is roman thick which is the breadier option called Pizza Romano.
Also a fun video to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFdjIOpmhN8

The crust is laid out and worked by hand leaving more air pockets.  It's still considered thin by some, but the pies are very large and it is sold by pieces / weight.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 10:10:41 AM by MN-Smoker »
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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2020, 10:42:07 AM »

I used to by the frozen Home Run Inn pizzas when I lived in the Chicagoland area.  They had a bit of a buttery, flaky crust.
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elenis

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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2020, 12:01:15 PM »

The thin crust tavern style if you do edge to edge toppings can be considered Columbus style, or I have heard it referred to as that before. I believe they say chain wise that the style originated with Donatos, but there are much better places, like Massey's or Flyers around here that do it. I really enjoy Detroit style. Something about that overly crispy cheese along the edges. 
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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2020, 01:16:38 PM »

The thin crust tavern style if you do edge to edge toppings can be considered Columbus style, or I have heard it referred to as that before. I believe they say chain wise that the style originated with Donatos, but there are much better places, like Massey's or Flyers around here that do it. I really enjoy Detroit style. Something about that overly crispy cheese along the edges.

I hadn't seen Detroit style until I spent some time working in Detroit. I was surprised to see something like that and first thought it was a version of a Chicago Deep Dish.

It IS NOT.
There is very little similar between Chicago Deep Dish and Detroit other than the height of the slice itself.

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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2020, 01:20:09 PM »

I used to by the frozen Home Run Inn pizzas when I lived in the Chicagoland area.  They had a bit of a buttery, flaky crust.

I enjoy them. They have a unique taste that isn't found in other pizzas.
The crust is very pie-crust like.
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Free Mr. Tony

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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2020, 07:25:32 PM »

Tried a new one tonight. Someone over on the pizza making forum claims to have almost 100% cloned a famous New Jersey boardwalk pizza. The main difference from other dough is the addition of lard. It also calls for New York sharp cheddar as well as applying the sauce in a spiral fashion after the cheese is on.

I've never had a Jersey boardwalk pie, so I have no idea whether this is what I would find or not.  My wife and son were big fans, and like it better than the New Haven styles I've been making recently. My daughter didn't care for it as much. I thought it was really good, however, I prefer the New Haven style.

I mixed the sharp cheddar with mozz 50/50. It was a pretty tasty cheese blend. I prefer the traditional sauce application as opposed to the spiral.

Cooked at 550-625. I also prefer a slightly hotter cook, although there wasn't anything bad about this method. End result was certainly satisfying nonetheless.





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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2020, 07:37:44 PM »

Looks like a pie I had in the early 80's off of Van Ness Ave, in San Francisco.




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Free Mr. Tony

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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2020, 07:53:41 PM »

Looks like a pie I had in the early 80's off of Van Ness Ave, in San Francisco.





They are good party pizzas. Not the best you've ever had, but just the right type for the right moment. I know a guy who owns one of the old school shops around here. His story is that there was a guy who went around in the 80's selling the same recipes to multiple shops. They have all modified theirs to a certain extent over the years, but you can see the similar DNA between them all.
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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2020, 07:56:27 PM »

I don't recall ever eating any pizza from NJ boardwalk, but I can't imagine what you mad represents it for no fault of your own.  Granted, I am not an expert, but I have lived within 90-150 minutes of all shores of Jersey a large portion of my life.  I assume most of the places are closer to a NY style of pizza.  The pizza you made looks nothing like anything I have seen within 90 minutes of me but others closer to the NJ shore can chime in with their experience.  Again, I'm not criticizing your work.  I've just never seen a pizza around here that looks like that.  And from what I have seen on here, you do a pretty great job of making and replicating regional pizzas.
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Free Mr. Tony

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Re: Pizza styles
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2020, 08:49:39 PM »

I don't recall ever eating any pizza from NJ boardwalk, but I can't imagine what you mad represents it for no fault of your own.  Granted, I am not an expert, but I have lived within 90-150 minutes of all shores of Jersey a large portion of my life.  I assume most of the places are closer to a NY style of pizza.  The pizza you made looks nothing like anything I have seen within 90 minutes of me but others closer to the NJ shore can chime in with their experience.  Again, I'm not criticizing your work.  I've just never seen a pizza around here that looks like that.  And from what I have seen on here, you do a pretty great job of making and replicating regional pizzas.

Appreciate the feedback, and certainly no offense taken. Especially when I've never been to a particular area, I'm looking for local input more than anything else. The place the poster says he cloned was Manco and Manco. Here are a few pics of the manco pies from their Yelp reviews. I cooked mine a bit longer because I like a more well done pie. I also blended the cheese as I thought I probably wouldn't like an all sharp cheddar pizza.






Honestly, those pizzas don't look like anything I would seek out. The lard in the crust is what intrigued me, and I mainly wanted to see what that did for the overall taste and texture. It was actually pretty good.
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