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[Free Mr. Tony]

In response to the following from Bar-B-Lew:
FMT, could you start another thread that explains the 4 styles of pizzas that you mentioned?  I am curious as to what distinguishes each from the other - thickness, sauce, cheese, dough ingredients, etc.

General dough comments-  I don't really change much about my dough recipe except for the type of flour used, and how much water (hydration).  I pretty much always use around 2% salt as a bakers percentage, and just use the amount of yeast that I feel is correct for how far out I will be making the pizza after mixing and balling.  I have experimented with different yeast, as well as sourdough starters.  I enjoy the flavor of the sourdough, but am terrible at keeping up with that sort of stuff.  I pretty much just use Active Dry Yeast for everything now.  My dough is also an ever-evolving thing. I have used countless types/brands of flour.

Cheese- I use different kinds of cheese for different pies, and try new ones often.  I use a lot of Murray's cheeses (famous NY shop) because it is super high quality, and our Kroger Marketplace has a Murrays so almost any type is readily available.  My go-tos though are as follows and I will say for which type down the line:
1.  Dairy Fresh low moisture mozzarella
2.  Murray's Parm Reggiano
3.  Murray's Fresh Mozzarella
4.  Murry's Muenster
5.  Kerry Gold Dubliner
6.  Wisconsin Brick-not sure on brand

Sauce- This I have played with the least of everything.  I have used tons of different brands of tomatoes, but for the most part I use the following:

Crushed tomatoes, drained of much of the liquid
Fresh chopped garlic
light amount of dry Italian herbs
drizzle of olive oil
Salt
Maybe a pinch of sugar if I end up with a real weird can of tomatoes

DETROIT:
I have been to Buddy's in Detroit (I believe the widely accepted original of the style) and we have Jet's here in Fort Wayne, so I think I have had a pretty good sample to compare mine to.  I prefer Jet's over Buddy's mainly just because of the super crispy bottoms.  Both are good though.  Mine is in the ballpark.  Detroit pizza is made in a high sided pan (google if anyone would like the pan history that is tied into the auto industry), is airy and thick kind of similar to Foccacia bread, and typically uses brick cheese.  I think some places use Mozzarella and Muenster like Little Caesars.  The sauce tastes cooked to me on the ones that I have had, but I really don't know.  I think the real deal Detroit stripes the sauce down the pizzas after they come out.  I have tried it that way, and prefer the traditional style of cooking on the pizza in the oven.

My version:
50/50 mix of hi-gluten flour and bread flour
62-70 percent hydration (say you have 100g of flour and use 62ml water(same in g)-thats where the percentage comes from)
Triple rise- Bulk rise the entire dough.  Cut into weighted portions.  Press into oiled pans for 2nd rise.  Press out so that fills the pan, and let rise a third time.
Sauce
Brick, low moisture mozz, muenster or some combo
Stack Kerrygold dubliner around the outside edge all around the pan. This will melt down the sides, and give a delicious crunchy bite of cheese on the edges.
Baked with pan directly on stone at 500-600 until it is done.



CRACKER:
The only thing I have to compare this to is Pizza Hut thin crust.  Back before I started making pizza, this is what my family enjoyed.  We typically order thin still if we get Pizza Hut.  It is a dry, bubbly crust. 

My version:
Hi gluten flour
38% hydration
At least a 24-hour rise in fridge
Take out of fridge, and let come to near room temp
Roll out super thin
You can use a round pan and trim to size pushing the edges up the lip of pan to make like Pizza Hut or launch directly on to a stone
Sauce
Low Moisture Mozz and a light sprinkling of parm reggiano
Bake in one of the above manners in at 400-500 degrees

I don't make this style that often anymore, and don't have great recent pictures



NEAPOLITAN:
The holy grail for many.  After eating at several Neapolitan pizza places, the most notable being Spacca Napoli, in Chicago, I have realized that I like this style less than I thought.  It is very good, however I prefer a crispier, crunchier, and chewier crust than a true Neapolitan pizza provides.  True Neapolitan pizza is often floppy, and sometimes a little soupy in the middle.  The best ones aren't, but many are.  The crust is almost like eating air, but in a good way.  A super puffy rim with beautiful leopard spotting from being cooked at 800+ degrees is one of its calling cards.  If you get one in a box, you hardly would notice that it has a pizza in it. 

My version:
00 flour
62-68% hydration
same day to 72 hours in the fridge
Press out lightly without messing with the rim too much
Sauce
Fresh Mozz, and a little parm reggiano
Cook at 800-900 for a minute or two




NY/New Haven:

I preface this section by saying that I have never been to NY or New Haven, Ct.  I only have research and places that say they are NY style to go on.  This seems to be my favorite.  Crispy and chewy crust, yet soft enough to bend.  The slightly thinner crust using all bread flour and cooking to a more well done phase like New Haven style is my new favorite at present time.  Again, no claims on this one as being anywhere near authentic.  I have nothing real to base it off of. 

My version

NY-50/50 mix hi gluten and bread flour, 62% hydration, and anywhere from same day to 72 hours in the fridge.  I smash the rim down more than neapolitan but less than NH when stretching.
NH-All bread flour, 58% hydration, and 48 hours in the fridge.  Smash the rim down pretty good when stretching.
Sauce
Low moisture mozz, fresh mozz, and parm reggiano (I don't use fresh mozz on NH, and I don't believe parm is common on either in real places but I like it)
Cook at 675.  NH goes until its a little darker. Alot darker if you look at some of the yelp pictures from Pepe or Sallys





So there you have it.  My surely bastardized versions of pizza from all over the country that is probably making people's heads explode that are from those areas.  Feel free to sound off if you are from a famous pizza area.  I have thick skin, and am always looking for information from the source of anything that I attempt to create or re-create.

[okie smokie]

Pizza chef award goes the Mr. Tony by a landslide IMO.  Great recipes and results.

[bregent]

Those are great descriptions FMT! Growing up in New York, NY Style is mostly what I ate but also spent a lot of time in Connecticut. I think NY and New Haven are very similar crusts with the biggest difference the amount of char on the crust, mostly due to higher bake temps I believe. As you said, the rim is more pressed down so more crispy and less airy.  Also, there are a few distinguishing toppings like clams and just tomato sauce that are popular on New Haven.

New York style is commonly just cheese, and maybe one other topping at a time.

Not sure about New Haven, but NY style sauce is typically very thin. I use undrained crushed tomatoes with some herbs added to it - and never cooked. I add the herbs/spices to a little olive oil, heat that in the microwave on a low to extract the flavors, and then mix that into the sauce. For cheese, I use low moisture whole milk mozz. I don't use fresh mozz unless I'm making a specialty type pie. And always grate a little pecorino Romano over the sauce before adding the mozz.

Now I'm getting hungry again.

[yorkdude]

That has to one of the best tutorials I’ve ever seen. Nicely done.

[Bar-B-Lew]

That has to one of the best tutorials I’ve ever seen. Nicely done.

Amen to that.  It was much more than I was expecting, but greatly appreciated.  Thank you, FMT.

Also, other than the type of cheese, do you think the Detroit style is similar to Sicilian style?  I think I would really like the Detroit style.

[Free Mr. Tony]

That has to one of the best tutorials I’ve ever seen. Nicely done.

Amen to that.  It was much more than I was expecting, but greatly appreciated.  Thank you, FMT.

Also, other than the type of cheese, do you think the Detroit style is similar to Sicilian style?  I think I would really like the Detroit style.

I would assume they are very similar, however I've never really had a Sicilian slice.  That blackish cheesy edge seems to be the main difference.  Detroit is really good, but HEAVY.  Even though the dough is airy, it is typically pretty oily.  I love it, but usually just eat one slice.  It re-heats probably the best of all of them though if you have leftovers.

[Bar-B-Lew]

Here are pics from a local pizza shop of their sicilian and grandma's slices (right).  Grandma's has lots of garlic and basil and is a little flatter and heavier than the sicilian.

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[Free Mr. Tony]

I've made those a few times.  Mine looks like sort of a hybrid of the two that you pictured. I used 1/4 sheet pans.  I would estimate that Detroit are about 1.5x thicker as the main difference.  I'm guessing NY grandma slices would have different cheese and tomato sauce as well as a different way of applying the sauce and cheese before baking.  The fresh mozz was a mistake on this one.  Fresh does not hold up well to long bakes.  It browns too much, and kind of gets sort of like rubberband texture.  Otherwise, this was a good pizza.  If I was eating a bunch, I'd rather have the grandma slice because of thickness.

[hughver]

Thank you FMT, that was an excellent tutorial. I like my pizza crust to be crunchy all over, especially on the bottom. What are the key factors in obtaining crust with crunchy bottoms?

[Bar-B-Lew]

Yes, the cheese and sauce were different on the two types, but I am not smart enough to be able to say what each was and its been a few months since I have had some.  I may have to remedy that in the next few days.

[Ralphie]

Wow. I learned a ton reading that. Thank you!

[Bar-B-Lew]

Wow. I learned a ton reading that. Thank you!

Awesome.  I was hoping my request to FMT would do that, and it appears it has for a few already with the great job he did.

[Free Mr. Tony]

Thank you FMT, that was an excellent tutorial. I like my pizza crust to be crunchy all over, especially on the bottom. What are the key factors in obtaining crust with crunchy bottoms?

For the hand-tossed or rolled out types that sit directly on the stone or cooking floor, its a function of time, temperature, and hydration.  If you want it crisp like a cracker, you need basically all of the moisture cooked out of the crust.  If you want NY you still want some moisture left but not nearly as much as Neapolitan.  For the pan pizza styles, oil or a cooking spray on the pan kind of fries the bottom of the crust to a certain extent.  You may not be cooking as much moisture out but there is a fat involved, which changes the equation.  As to your specific question, starting with a lower hydration would be my first step.

As just an observation with no data personally to back it up, I've gotten more crisp from doughs that sit in the fridge for at least a day or two.  I'm not sure what the science is there, but I have noticed that over time.  Not to say you can't get a crisp crust from a dough cooked on the same day, but there is something about that fermentation time that plays into it. 

If you can't get it as crisp as you would like, you would need to play with the hydration, time, and temp.  There are a variety of other factors including the balance of temps above and below the pizza.  Obviously the goal is to get the crust exactly as you like at the same time the toppings are at the perfect stage of doneness.  You could nerd out all day on how to accomplish that, but trial and error is probably the easiest when it is all said and done. 

Brand, temp, moisture, and fat content of everything including the sauce, cheese, and toppings all play into how your crust will ultimately turn out.  You could have the most perfect crust ever mixed, but if topped the wrong way it can be a disaster.  Take a crust that is usually crispy that would be stretched thin.  Put too much sauce on, pile on a bunch of raw vegetables, and then top with a cheese that starts to get oily at high temperatures.  You will end up with soup instead of pizza.  I tried a new cheese out recently that is fairly well respected in the pizza world.  Grande 50/50 mix of Mozz and Provolone.  I used it twice, and both times the pizza ended up with pools of water in the center.  I haven't really done the research to figure out why yet, but I assume I probably cooked it too hot and it fatted out on me.  Based on the fact that pizzerias all over the country use this cheese, there has to be something on my end that is causing it to do that.  Cooked at 450 in a conveyer oven may melt that cheese wonderfully on a different kind of pizza.  It will not be going on mine again until I figure out what is happening. 

[texasbrew]

FMT great write up!  I worked in a pizza place back in college named Mazzio's (local Oklahoma chain whose thin crust pizza was very similar to Pizza Hut).  For our thin crust we would use a machine to roll out the dough.  We would then perforate the dough and the add it to the pan.  We ran it through a Blodgett conveyor belt oven and when it came out (after about an 8 minute run) we would remove the pizza from the pan and put back in the oven to let it cook an additional minute to help ensure that the bottom was crispy.  I think that the oven ran at about 500 deg F.

[hughver]

Thanks for another great tutorial, I'll start experimenting tomorrow.