Pellet Fan
All Things Considered => General Discussion--Food Related => Topic started by: Free Mr. Tony on May 13, 2020, 07:15:09 PM
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In response to the following from Bar-B-Lew:
FMT, could you start another thread that explains the 4 styles of pizzas that you mentioned? I am curious as to what distinguishes each from the other - thickness, sauce, cheese, dough ingredients, etc.
General dough comments- I don't really change much about my dough recipe except for the type of flour used, and how much water (hydration). I pretty much always use around 2% salt as a bakers percentage, and just use the amount of yeast that I feel is correct for how far out I will be making the pizza after mixing and balling. I have experimented with different yeast, as well as sourdough starters. I enjoy the flavor of the sourdough, but am terrible at keeping up with that sort of stuff. I pretty much just use Active Dry Yeast for everything now. My dough is also an ever-evolving thing. I have used countless types/brands of flour.
Cheese- I use different kinds of cheese for different pies, and try new ones often. I use a lot of Murray's cheeses (famous NY shop) because it is super high quality, and our Kroger Marketplace has a Murrays so almost any type is readily available. My go-tos though are as follows and I will say for which type down the line:
1. Dairy Fresh low moisture mozzarella
2. Murray's Parm Reggiano
3. Murray's Fresh Mozzarella
4. Murry's Muenster
5. Kerry Gold Dubliner
6. Wisconsin Brick-not sure on brand
Sauce- This I have played with the least of everything. I have used tons of different brands of tomatoes, but for the most part I use the following:
Crushed tomatoes, drained of much of the liquid
Fresh chopped garlic
light amount of dry Italian herbs
drizzle of olive oil
Salt
Maybe a pinch of sugar if I end up with a real weird can of tomatoes
DETROIT:
I have been to Buddy's in Detroit (I believe the widely accepted original of the style) and we have Jet's here in Fort Wayne, so I think I have had a pretty good sample to compare mine to. I prefer Jet's over Buddy's mainly just because of the super crispy bottoms. Both are good though. Mine is in the ballpark. Detroit pizza is made in a high sided pan (google if anyone would like the pan history that is tied into the auto industry), is airy and thick kind of similar to Foccacia bread, and typically uses brick cheese. I think some places use Mozzarella and Muenster like Little Caesars. The sauce tastes cooked to me on the ones that I have had, but I really don't know. I think the real deal Detroit stripes the sauce down the pizzas after they come out. I have tried it that way, and prefer the traditional style of cooking on the pizza in the oven.
My version:
50/50 mix of hi-gluten flour and bread flour
62-70 percent hydration (say you have 100g of flour and use 62ml water(same in g)-thats where the percentage comes from)
Triple rise- Bulk rise the entire dough. Cut into weighted portions. Press into oiled pans for 2nd rise. Press out so that fills the pan, and let rise a third time.
Sauce
Brick, low moisture mozz, muenster or some combo
Stack Kerrygold dubliner around the outside edge all around the pan. This will melt down the sides, and give a delicious crunchy bite of cheese on the edges.
Baked with pan directly on stone at 500-600 until it is done.
(https://i.imgur.com/ufYcG77l.png)
CRACKER:
The only thing I have to compare this to is Pizza Hut thin crust. Back before I started making pizza, this is what my family enjoyed. We typically order thin still if we get Pizza Hut. It is a dry, bubbly crust.
My version:
Hi gluten flour
38% hydration
At least a 24-hour rise in fridge
Take out of fridge, and let come to near room temp
Roll out super thin
You can use a round pan and trim to size pushing the edges up the lip of pan to make like Pizza Hut or launch directly on to a stone
Sauce
Low Moisture Mozz and a light sprinkling of parm reggiano
Bake in one of the above manners in at 400-500 degrees
I don't make this style that often anymore, and don't have great recent pictures
(https://i.imgur.com/uRWzBPzl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/B68QuG5l.jpg)
NEAPOLITAN:
The holy grail for many. After eating at several Neapolitan pizza places, the most notable being Spacca Napoli, in Chicago, I have realized that I like this style less than I thought. It is very good, however I prefer a crispier, crunchier, and chewier crust than a true Neapolitan pizza provides. True Neapolitan pizza is often floppy, and sometimes a little soupy in the middle. The best ones aren't, but many are. The crust is almost like eating air, but in a good way. A super puffy rim with beautiful leopard spotting from being cooked at 800+ degrees is one of its calling cards. If you get one in a box, you hardly would notice that it has a pizza in it.
My version:
00 flour
62-68% hydration
same day to 72 hours in the fridge
Press out lightly without messing with the rim too much
Sauce
Fresh Mozz, and a little parm reggiano
Cook at 800-900 for a minute or two
(https://i.imgur.com/Vuhn0ctl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/LWs2mbFl.png)
NY/New Haven:
I preface this section by saying that I have never been to NY or New Haven, Ct. I only have research and places that say they are NY style to go on. This seems to be my favorite. Crispy and chewy crust, yet soft enough to bend. The slightly thinner crust using all bread flour and cooking to a more well done phase like New Haven style is my new favorite at present time. Again, no claims on this one as being anywhere near authentic. I have nothing real to base it off of.
My version
NY-50/50 mix hi gluten and bread flour, 62% hydration, and anywhere from same day to 72 hours in the fridge. I smash the rim down more than neapolitan but less than NH when stretching.
NH-All bread flour, 58% hydration, and 48 hours in the fridge. Smash the rim down pretty good when stretching.
Sauce
Low moisture mozz, fresh mozz, and parm reggiano (I don't use fresh mozz on NH, and I don't believe parm is common on either in real places but I like it)
Cook at 675. NH goes until its a little darker. Alot darker if you look at some of the yelp pictures from Pepe or Sallys
(https://i.imgur.com/Vbffimsl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lb2Uvihl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LzuEriAl.jpg)
So there you have it. My surely bastardized versions of pizza from all over the country that is probably making people's heads explode that are from those areas. Feel free to sound off if you are from a famous pizza area. I have thick skin, and am always looking for information from the source of anything that I attempt to create or re-create.
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Pizza chef award goes the Mr. Tony by a landslide IMO. Great recipes and results.
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Those are great descriptions FMT! Growing up in New York, NY Style is mostly what I ate but also spent a lot of time in Connecticut. I think NY and New Haven are very similar crusts with the biggest difference the amount of char on the crust, mostly due to higher bake temps I believe. As you said, the rim is more pressed down so more crispy and less airy. Also, there are a few distinguishing toppings like clams and just tomato sauce that are popular on New Haven.
New York style is commonly just cheese, and maybe one other topping at a time.
Not sure about New Haven, but NY style sauce is typically very thin. I use undrained crushed tomatoes with some herbs added to it - and never cooked. I add the herbs/spices to a little olive oil, heat that in the microwave on a low to extract the flavors, and then mix that into the sauce. For cheese, I use low moisture whole milk mozz. I don't use fresh mozz unless I'm making a specialty type pie. And always grate a little pecorino Romano over the sauce before adding the mozz.
Now I'm getting hungry again.
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That has to one of the best tutorials I’ve ever seen. Nicely done.
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That has to one of the best tutorials I’ve ever seen. Nicely done.
Amen to that. It was much more than I was expecting, but greatly appreciated. Thank you, FMT.
Also, other than the type of cheese, do you think the Detroit style is similar to Sicilian style? I think I would really like the Detroit style.
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That has to one of the best tutorials I’ve ever seen. Nicely done.
Amen to that. It was much more than I was expecting, but greatly appreciated. Thank you, FMT.
Also, other than the type of cheese, do you think the Detroit style is similar to Sicilian style? I think I would really like the Detroit style.
I would assume they are very similar, however I've never really had a Sicilian slice. That blackish cheesy edge seems to be the main difference. Detroit is really good, but HEAVY. Even though the dough is airy, it is typically pretty oily. I love it, but usually just eat one slice. It re-heats probably the best of all of them though if you have leftovers.
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Here are pics from a local pizza shop of their sicilian and grandma's slices (right). Grandma's has lots of garlic and basil and is a little flatter and heavier than the sicilian.
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I've made those a few times. Mine looks like sort of a hybrid of the two that you pictured. I used 1/4 sheet pans. I would estimate that Detroit are about 1.5x thicker as the main difference. I'm guessing NY grandma slices would have different cheese and tomato sauce as well as a different way of applying the sauce and cheese before baking. The fresh mozz was a mistake on this one. Fresh does not hold up well to long bakes. It browns too much, and kind of gets sort of like rubberband texture. Otherwise, this was a good pizza. If I was eating a bunch, I'd rather have the grandma slice because of thickness.
(https://i.imgur.com/F5HZUVUl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/DPhoNCyl.png)
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Thank you FMT, that was an excellent tutorial. I like my pizza crust to be crunchy all over, especially on the bottom. What are the key factors in obtaining crust with crunchy bottoms?
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Yes, the cheese and sauce were different on the two types, but I am not smart enough to be able to say what each was and its been a few months since I have had some. I may have to remedy that in the next few days.
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Wow. I learned a ton reading that. Thank you!
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Wow. I learned a ton reading that. Thank you!
Awesome. I was hoping my request to FMT would do that, and it appears it has for a few already with the great job he did.
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Thank you FMT, that was an excellent tutorial. I like my pizza crust to be crunchy all over, especially on the bottom. What are the key factors in obtaining crust with crunchy bottoms?
For the hand-tossed or rolled out types that sit directly on the stone or cooking floor, its a function of time, temperature, and hydration. If you want it crisp like a cracker, you need basically all of the moisture cooked out of the crust. If you want NY you still want some moisture left but not nearly as much as Neapolitan. For the pan pizza styles, oil or a cooking spray on the pan kind of fries the bottom of the crust to a certain extent. You may not be cooking as much moisture out but there is a fat involved, which changes the equation. As to your specific question, starting with a lower hydration would be my first step.
As just an observation with no data personally to back it up, I've gotten more crisp from doughs that sit in the fridge for at least a day or two. I'm not sure what the science is there, but I have noticed that over time. Not to say you can't get a crisp crust from a dough cooked on the same day, but there is something about that fermentation time that plays into it.
If you can't get it as crisp as you would like, you would need to play with the hydration, time, and temp. There are a variety of other factors including the balance of temps above and below the pizza. Obviously the goal is to get the crust exactly as you like at the same time the toppings are at the perfect stage of doneness. You could nerd out all day on how to accomplish that, but trial and error is probably the easiest when it is all said and done.
Brand, temp, moisture, and fat content of everything including the sauce, cheese, and toppings all play into how your crust will ultimately turn out. You could have the most perfect crust ever mixed, but if topped the wrong way it can be a disaster. Take a crust that is usually crispy that would be stretched thin. Put too much sauce on, pile on a bunch of raw vegetables, and then top with a cheese that starts to get oily at high temperatures. You will end up with soup instead of pizza. I tried a new cheese out recently that is fairly well respected in the pizza world. Grande 50/50 mix of Mozz and Provolone. I used it twice, and both times the pizza ended up with pools of water in the center. I haven't really done the research to figure out why yet, but I assume I probably cooked it too hot and it fatted out on me. Based on the fact that pizzerias all over the country use this cheese, there has to be something on my end that is causing it to do that. Cooked at 450 in a conveyer oven may melt that cheese wonderfully on a different kind of pizza. It will not be going on mine again until I figure out what is happening.
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FMT great write up! I worked in a pizza place back in college named Mazzio's (local Oklahoma chain whose thin crust pizza was very similar to Pizza Hut). For our thin crust we would use a machine to roll out the dough. We would then perforate the dough and the add it to the pan. We ran it through a Blodgett conveyor belt oven and when it came out (after about an 8 minute run) we would remove the pizza from the pan and put back in the oven to let it cook an additional minute to help ensure that the bottom was crispy. I think that the oven ran at about 500 deg F.
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Thanks for another great tutorial, I'll start experimenting tomorrow.
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FMT great write up! I worked in a pizza place back in college named Mazzio's (local Oklahoma chain whose thin crust pizza was very similar to Pizza Hut). For our thin crust we would use a machine to roll out the dough. We would then perforate the dough and the add it to the pan. We ran it through a Blodgett conveyor belt oven and when it came out (after about an 8 minute run) we would remove the pizza from the pan and put back in the oven to let it cook an additional minute to help ensure that the bottom was crispy. I think that the oven ran at about 500 deg F.
Thanks for the info. I checked the place out on Yelp. The thin looks very similar to pizza hut. If I cook mine in a pan (other than Detroit), I almost always slide it out to go directly on the stone or firebrick in the wood oven for the last few minutes.
I've also had some of my larger failures doing that as well. If you are making a 16" pizza in a pan and you try to take it out a tad early, it's fairly easy to rip a giant hole in the bottom on the transfer. It's happened more than once to me.
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Thank you FMT, that was an excellent tutorial. I like my pizza crust to be crunchy all over, especially on the bottom. What are the key factors in obtaining crust with crunchy bottoms?
For the hand-tossed or rolled out types that sit directly on the stone or cooking floor, its a function of time, temperature, and hydration. If you want it crisp like a cracker, you need basically all of the moisture cooked out of the crust. If you want NY you still want some moisture left but not nearly as much as Neapolitan. For the pan pizza styles, oil or a cooking spray on the pan kind of fries the bottom of the crust to a certain extent. You may not be cooking as much moisture out but there is a fat involved, which changes the equation. As to your specific question, starting with a lower hydration would be my first step.
As just an observation with no data personally to back it up, I've gotten more crisp from doughs that sit in the fridge for at least a day or two. I'm not sure what the science is there, but I have noticed that over time. Not to say you can't get a crisp crust from a dough cooked on the same day, but there is something about that fermentation time that plays into it.
If you can't get it as crisp as you would like, you would need to play with the hydration, time, and temp. There are a variety of other factors including the balance of temps above and below the pizza. Obviously the goal is to get the crust exactly as you like at the same time the toppings are at the perfect stage of doneness. You could nerd out all day on how to accomplish that, but trial and error is probably the easiest when it is all said and done.
Brand, temp, moisture, and fat content of everything including the sauce, cheese, and toppings all play into how your crust will ultimately turn out. You could have the most perfect crust ever mixed, but if topped the wrong way it can be a disaster. Take a crust that is usually crispy that would be stretched thin. Put too much sauce on, pile on a bunch of raw vegetables, and then top with a cheese that starts to get oily at high temperatures. You will end up with soup instead of pizza. I tried a new cheese out recently that is fairly well respected in the pizza world. Grande 50/50 mix of Mozz and Provolone. I used it twice, and both times the pizza ended up with pools of water in the center. I haven't really done the research to figure out why yet, but I assume I probably cooked it too hot and it fatted out on me. Based on the fact that pizzerias all over the country use this cheese, there has to be something on my end that is causing it to do that. Cooked at 450 in a conveyer oven may melt that cheese wonderfully on a different kind of pizza. It will not be going on mine again until I figure out what is happening.
You may have gotten more crisp on your longer fermented dough because you may have started to have more moisture leak out of the dough from the additional fermentation time. On a pizza stone or steel, that moisture, usually on the outer sides of the crust will sear off quickly and provide crisp, versus a less fermented dough which will hold more of that moisture in the dough when heated at the contact point.
Thin crust has a couple different categories.
1. Roman style. The picture of what you show looks similar to a roman style that shows bubbling when cooked.
2. Plain old thin. Flat, no bubbles, properly portioned toppings.
3. Tavern Style -This can even include pie-like crusts like Home Run Inn pizzas where crust has more oil in the crust versus the overly topped Milwaukee, Minnesotan, or Midwest style where the pizza is overly topped and generally cut in squares. The crust is more of a means to carry the toppings in most of these cases than something appreciated.
Regarding your cheese watering, depending on whether your cheese was shredded, crumbled/balled, diced, or sliced, each of those factors can affect it's melting characteristics. Keeping your cheese very cold (or some add it frozen) to prevent the watering from happening. It's breaking down from cooking too long which is releasing that moisture.
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More great information for us pizza nubies. Thanks
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Thanks for the info MN-smoker. That all makes sense.
The tavern style that you mention is one I haven't had great luck with yet. We have many places here that serve that style. One of the more prominent being Pizza King. This photo is from Yelp. Not my photo.
(https://i.imgur.com/LXbATjdl.png)
They hit the spot a couple times a year. I have not tried too many times on this style but typically the crust won't hold up real well to all the toppings. Like you said, overtopped. Those places seem to have this little tiny crust but it somehow holds up when overtopped. Haven't figured that one out yet.
Most of the truly local places around here specialize in plain old thin or the tavern. Other than chains, there are some variety but the old Midwestern pizza still is most prominent.
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Here in Minnesota they refer to it as it's own style, but it's largely Tavern Pizza.
This first one is from Carbone's, which is a small chain up here. The crust is thin and pale in color. Very little structure to it and no crisp. It's overloaded with cheese. The cheese itself does more to hold the pizza together than the crust.
(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0c/99/87/7a/half-of-pepperoni-mushroom.jpg)
This next one is from Red Savoy pizza. It was a single location and has grown into a Minnesota chain. It's probably considered the best pizza of THIS style in Minnesota. This crust is baked usually on a conveyor air impingement oven which provides a crust that has some structure, but not enough to hold a triangle slice, thus the squared. Again, an overload of toppings. Savoy has a "zestier" sauce than most pizzas found in Minnesota.
The heavy load of toppings is popular here because of the perception of value. Crust without toppings is seen as waste, and we like big portions when buying food at restaurants so we get our monies worth.
(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/14/04/a3/e7/veggie-pizza.jpg)
This photo is from Home Run Inn. (Found on web). When most people discuss "Tavern Style" pizza, Home Run Inn is moreless considered the founder. Home Run Inn started serving pizza (and really salty pizza at that) to their customers to get them to drink more beer. The pizza was served in squares so more people could get a taste and it was free for visitors. The pizza gained popularity and they started selling them.
(https://www.businessinfocusmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/HomeRunInn-banner-631x356.jpg)
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Here is a fun video to watch on "Roman Thin" pizza. Scrocchiarella
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWCY9UlTNEI
The crust is rolled out very thin.
There is roman thick which is the breadier option called Pizza Romano.
Also a fun video to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFdjIOpmhN8
The crust is laid out and worked by hand leaving more air pockets. It's still considered thin by some, but the pies are very large and it is sold by pieces / weight.
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I used to by the frozen Home Run Inn pizzas when I lived in the Chicagoland area. They had a bit of a buttery, flaky crust.
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The thin crust tavern style if you do edge to edge toppings can be considered Columbus style, or I have heard it referred to as that before. I believe they say chain wise that the style originated with Donatos, but there are much better places, like Massey's or Flyers around here that do it. I really enjoy Detroit style. Something about that overly crispy cheese along the edges.
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The thin crust tavern style if you do edge to edge toppings can be considered Columbus style, or I have heard it referred to as that before. I believe they say chain wise that the style originated with Donatos, but there are much better places, like Massey's or Flyers around here that do it. I really enjoy Detroit style. Something about that overly crispy cheese along the edges.
I hadn't seen Detroit style until I spent some time working in Detroit. I was surprised to see something like that and first thought it was a version of a Chicago Deep Dish.
It IS NOT.
There is very little similar between Chicago Deep Dish and Detroit other than the height of the slice itself.
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I used to by the frozen Home Run Inn pizzas when I lived in the Chicagoland area. They had a bit of a buttery, flaky crust.
I enjoy them. They have a unique taste that isn't found in other pizzas.
The crust is very pie-crust like.
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Tried a new one tonight. Someone over on the pizza making forum claims to have almost 100% cloned a famous New Jersey boardwalk pizza. The main difference from other dough is the addition of lard. It also calls for New York sharp cheddar as well as applying the sauce in a spiral fashion after the cheese is on.
I've never had a Jersey boardwalk pie, so I have no idea whether this is what I would find or not. My wife and son were big fans, and like it better than the New Haven styles I've been making recently. My daughter didn't care for it as much. I thought it was really good, however, I prefer the New Haven style.
I mixed the sharp cheddar with mozz 50/50. It was a pretty tasty cheese blend. I prefer the traditional sauce application as opposed to the spiral.
Cooked at 550-625. I also prefer a slightly hotter cook, although there wasn't anything bad about this method. End result was certainly satisfying nonetheless.
(https://i.imgur.com/hFdZCYel.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YDWMnsJl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zc4Wqu2l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cU8uib3l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XnD6lWWl.jpg)
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Looks like a pie I had in the early 80's off of Van Ness Ave, in San Francisco.
(https://i.imgur.com/LXbATjdl.png)
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Looks like a pie I had in the early 80's off of Van Ness Ave, in San Francisco.
(https://i.imgur.com/LXbATjdl.png)
They are good party pizzas. Not the best you've ever had, but just the right type for the right moment. I know a guy who owns one of the old school shops around here. His story is that there was a guy who went around in the 80's selling the same recipes to multiple shops. They have all modified theirs to a certain extent over the years, but you can see the similar DNA between them all.
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I don't recall ever eating any pizza from NJ boardwalk, but I can't imagine what you mad represents it for no fault of your own. Granted, I am not an expert, but I have lived within 90-150 minutes of all shores of Jersey a large portion of my life. I assume most of the places are closer to a NY style of pizza. The pizza you made looks nothing like anything I have seen within 90 minutes of me but others closer to the NJ shore can chime in with their experience. Again, I'm not criticizing your work. I've just never seen a pizza around here that looks like that. And from what I have seen on here, you do a pretty great job of making and replicating regional pizzas.
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I don't recall ever eating any pizza from NJ boardwalk, but I can't imagine what you mad represents it for no fault of your own. Granted, I am not an expert, but I have lived within 90-150 minutes of all shores of Jersey a large portion of my life. I assume most of the places are closer to a NY style of pizza. The pizza you made looks nothing like anything I have seen within 90 minutes of me but others closer to the NJ shore can chime in with their experience. Again, I'm not criticizing your work. I've just never seen a pizza around here that looks like that. And from what I have seen on here, you do a pretty great job of making and replicating regional pizzas.
Appreciate the feedback, and certainly no offense taken. Especially when I've never been to a particular area, I'm looking for local input more than anything else. The place the poster says he cloned was Manco and Manco. Here are a few pics of the manco pies from their Yelp reviews. I cooked mine a bit longer because I like a more well done pie. I also blended the cheese as I thought I probably wouldn't like an all sharp cheddar pizza.
(https://i.imgur.com/mLOJwQ1l.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/0XaPia6l.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/GfAiZHWl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/XX7d0w8l.png)
Honestly, those pizzas don't look like anything I would seek out. The lard in the crust is what intrigued me, and I mainly wanted to see what that did for the overall taste and texture. It was actually pretty good.
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I'm not saying its not possible because there are plenty of styles within 90 miles of me. It just seems out of ordinary which maybe that's what they were going for. It looks too homemade for me to believe its their style, but I have never been there to see or believe it.
There seems to be more pizza styles in this country than methods to make ribs which is pretty incredible in my mind.
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A few.
The picture with two are hand stretched and the third is rolled out to be similar to the thin Roman style.
I can make two crust of these thin with the doughball of one of the others. Dough balls are about 13 oz for the thicker crust.
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Those look great. Baked on a stone, steel, or something else?
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This was unintentional, but I thought it ended up a pretty nice pic. I sent this to my daughter letting her know the pizza was done. The pizza oven just happened to be pretty clear in the window reflection.
(https://i.imgur.com/2LdHIMfl.jpg)
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Those look great. Baked on a stone, steel, or something else?
Those are done on a steel. Got oven to about 545.
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This was unintentional, but I thought it ended up a pretty nice pic. I sent this to my daughter letting her know the pizza was done. The pizza oven just happened to be pretty clear in the window reflection.
(https://i.imgur.com/2LdHIMfl.jpg)
I'll have a slice of that!
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I am trying to duplicate a pizza from Kristin's college years. The only way I know how to describe it is as a Thick Crust, which is really not of any region I can think of. It was a place called Carnegie's in La Jolla. I am not even sure how to describe it. The rim is more like the 1st Neapolitan in this thread, yet the body is about double that of the NY style, but not the bubble texture of the Detroit or Sicilian. Just a thicker slice. Can't seem to get the hydration right, as it is cooked for about 20-25 minutes at 400°. I wonder if adding lard might help. What amount of lard did you use per pound or kilo of flour and about how much yeast when you made the Boardwalk type? Maybe I will try that and see if it is more inline with this, although your cooking temperatures are much higher, but I am also going to assume the dough was much thinner, as my "style" would probably use 2 of those balls for one pie.
Me n Eds in Fresno use to use a 5 cheese blend, no wonder I liked them so much!
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This was unintentional, but I thought it ended up a pretty nice pic. I sent this to my daughter letting her know the pizza was done. The pizza oven just happened to be pretty clear in the window reflection.
(https://i.imgur.com/2LdHIMfl.jpg)
Looks like a PizzaParty oven.
I had the PizzaParty Pizzone at last house.
Opted for a bigger one at this house, want to start making bread in it as well as pizza.
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I am trying to duplicate a pizza from Kristin's college years. The only way I know how to describe it is as a Thick Crust, which is really not of any region I can think of. It was a place called Carnegie's in La Jolla. I am not even sure how to describe it. The rim is more like the 1st Neapolitan in this thread, yet the body is about double that of the NY style, but not the bubble texture of the Detroit or Sicilian. Just a thicker slice. Can't seem to get the hydration right, as it is cooked for about 20-25 minutes at 400°. I wonder if adding lard might help. What amount of lard did you use per pound or kilo of flour and about how much yeast when you made the Boardwalk type? Maybe I will try that and see if it is more inline with this, although your cooking temperatures are much higher, but I am also going to assume the dough was much thinner, as my "style" would probably use 2 of those balls for one pie.
Me n Eds in Fresno use to use a 5 cheese blend, no wonder I liked them so much!
It was 40 g room temp lard to 750 g of flour. 10 g yeast. So bakers percents of:
5.3% lard
1.3% yeast
Water was 500 g if interested. 66% hydration.
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This was unintentional, but I thought it ended up a pretty nice pic. I sent this to my daughter letting her know the pizza was done. The pizza oven just happened to be pretty clear in the window reflection.
(https://i.imgur.com/2LdHIMfl.jpg)
Looks like a PizzaParty oven.
I had the PizzaParty Pizzone at last house.
Opted for a bigger one at this house, want to start making bread in it as well as pizza.
I've heard good things about the Pizza Party ovens. Mine is a members mark from Sam's but is made by I believe NXR. They rebrand alot of similar ovens. I believe I read that they are no longer selling pizza party ovens in the US.
I've thrown around the idea of building a "real" pizza oven for years. Just haven't made it happen yet. Would probably go the four grand mere route if I did.
Edit: I just happened across your other thread. Looks like you picked the same oven, or similar, that I would.
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Wow! Way low on my yeast, no wonder I cant get any bubbles in the rim! And I am way to low on the hydration! Thanks!
It was 40 g room temp lard to 750 g of flour. 10 g yeast. So bakers percents of:
5.3% lard
1.3% yeast
Water was 500 g if interested. 66% hydration.
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Wow! Way low on my yeast, no wonder I cant get any bubbles in the rim! And I am way to low on the hydration! Thanks!
It was 40 g room temp lard to 750 g of flour. 10 g yeast. So bakers percents of:
5.3% lard
1.3% yeast
Water was 500 g if interested. 66% hydration.
Typically, the lower temp you cook the higher hydration you would need to get the puffier rim closer to Neapolitan. If you can cook at higher temps, you can get away with a lower hydration if puffy is what you are after.
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I just had it wrong. I thought the higher hydration was used in Neapolitan because it was cooked at such a high heat and for such a short period. I therefore reasoned that a lower temperature and longer cook would require a lower hydration. But my yeast has been about 4g for 500g of flour. It has always worked on my other dough for my Neapolitan at about 62% hydration. Will see what 2 1/2 times the yeast does with 25% more flour.
I am getting some lard tomorrow and will give it a try with some AP flour 1st with the 66% hydration and see if that will correct my issues.
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I've heard good things about the Pizza Party ovens. Mine is a members mark from Sam's but is made by I believe NXR. They rebrand alot of similar ovens. I believe I read that they are no longer selling pizza party ovens in the US.
I've thrown around the idea of building a "real" pizza oven for years. Just haven't made it happen yet. Would probably go the four grand mere route if I did.
Edit: I just happened across your other thread. Looks like you picked the same oven, or similar, that I would.
Does look similar.
Correct, they do not export PizzaParty to US anymore. Europe sales only.
A shame, is a nice oven for price.
Yes I do have the Four Grand Mere 800B.
Wanted 900B, but couldn't justify price difference.
Tough enough convincing SWMBO to spend what we did on the 800B. ::)
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I just had it wrong. I thought the higher hydration was used in Neapolitan because it was cooked at such a high heat and for such a short period. I therefore reasoned that a lower temperature and longer cook would require a lower hydration. But my yeast has been about 4g for 500g of flour. It has always worked on my other dough for my Neapolitan at about 62% hydration. Will see what 2 1/2 times the yeast does with 25% more flour.
I am getting some lard tomorrow and will give it a try with some AP flour 1st with the 66% hydration and see if that will correct my issues.
Dough is amazing, you can take the same 4 or 5 ingredients and and just change percentages and get dozens of different outcomes.
Every recipe takes tweaking to get it right for you.
Hydration can vary by type of flour.
Yeast amount can vary by type and how long you ferment.
Below is the recipe I use for General Mills All Trumps flour with a 3 day cold ferment in fridge then 2-3 hour room temp ferment right before making the 14" pizza.
In a couple months I will be finished with my All Trumps and have a bag of Caputo 00 flour in freezer that I will be changing to.
It will most likely require higher hydration.
I copied this from a spreadsheet I made that calculates percentages and adjust amounts if I'm making more than one pizza.
Have a dough ball in the fridge now for Saturday cook.
Will be 2nd pizza in new oven (a definite learning curve).
I will post pic of it then.
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I've heard good things about the Pizza Party ovens. Mine is a members mark from Sam's but is made by I believe NXR. They rebrand alot of similar ovens. I believe I read that they are no longer selling pizza party ovens in the US.
I've thrown around the idea of building a "real" pizza oven for years. Just haven't made it happen yet. Would probably go the four grand mere route if I did.
Edit: I just happened across your other thread. Looks like you picked the same oven, or similar, that I would.
Does look similar.
Correct, they do not export PizzaParty to US anymore. Europe sales only.
A shame, is a nice oven for price.
Yes I do have the Four Grand Mere 800B.
Wanted 900B, but couldn't justify price difference.
Tough enough convincing SWMBO to spend what we did on the 800B. ::)
Did you get the raised option? I think I would probably go that route for the extra headroom. I'm not strictly Neapolitan (obviously based on this thread) so I could live with the tradeoffs.
Let me know what you think of it. I will probably eventually get the same one or possibly the 900. Same dilemma as you on cost.
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Did you get the raised option? I think I would probably go that route for the extra headroom. I'm not strictly Neapolitan (obviously based on this thread) so I could live with the tradeoffs.
Let me know what you think of it. I will probably eventually get the same one or possibly the 900. Same dilemma as you on cost.
No I didn't, wish I had so I could stack wood higher for larger fire.
There is so much mass, it's tough to get it all heated.
Saturday is 2nd pizza in it, so need to try for bigger fire.
Will start 4 hrs before cook time. Tried 3 hours last time, and pizza took 4-5 minutes.
With Pizza Party, I was doing 90-120 sec. cooks with one hour of fire time.
Going to go through a lot more wood, that's for sure...
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This is not going to come across good and I know that as I am typing it. Do you realize how many pizzas you can buy at a local pizza shop for the price of those pizza ovens?
I ask that knowing at least two things. I may have much better pizza options than either of you being in the Northeast and specifically in the greater tri-state area of Eastern PA, NJ, and NY. I also have spent way more money on pellet grills than any rational person would have.
If I didn't live where I live and my wife would have originally been from where we live now, I probably would have bought one too. She enjoys Tony's frozen pizza and most of the chain pizzas so she wouldn't appreciate anything made in one of those pizza ovens.
I hope you guys enjoy them as I am sure they are fun and produce great food.
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FYI - I'm a big boy, not offended...
It will be used to make bread as well, but you are correct on cost vs product, however it was obviously not purchased to save money.
Same can be said about smokers, how many racks of ribs could you buy at a restaurant to match the cost of the grill.
Same as the grill, both purchased for the the simple "because I want to" reason, and we enjoy using them.
Why buy a Ferrari when you can buy a Hyundai for a lot less?
If it fits your budget/lifestyle, why not ?
Everyone has different budgets/tastes...
Do you prefer your smoked foods over restaurants ? I would venture to say yes.
I think if you start making your own, you may be surprised to find you enjoy it.
What can I say, it's America, we buy what we want... ;D
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I hear what you are saying and agree for the most part. I can get great pizza here so I have no interest in an outdoor pizza oven. I know I can make better BBQ than anywhere in the country I can buy it so I have spent my money on those toys instead. And, I think BBQ is more forgiving than making pizza.
I do want to see more picks of the food you make on that Memphis and in that outdoor pizza oven though so keep on contributing here.
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This is not going to come across good and I know that as I am typing it. Do you realize how many pizzas you can buy at a local pizza shop for the price of those pizza ovens?
I ask that knowing at least two things. I may have much better pizza options than either of you being in the Northeast and specifically in the greater tri-state area of Eastern PA, NJ, and NY. I also have spent way more money on pellet grills than any rational person would have.
If I didn't live where I live and my wife would have originally been from where we live now, I probably would have bought one too. She enjoys Tony's frozen pizza and most of the chain pizzas so she wouldn't appreciate anything made in one of those pizza ovens.
I hope you guys enjoy them as I am sure they are fun and produce great food.
It's a valid point, but I've just never really looked at purchases that way. There are plenty of good pizza options here. Probably not nearly as many as you, but possibly more varied. I can get a good Detroit, Tavern, neo, and sort of NY here.
I really don't look at it financially at all. I like to make things from scratch, and I like high end equipment that makes it easier and possibly better. Some things I end up making better than what I can buy, and some things I don't quite ever get there. It's more the chase of striving for something, and the challenge/joy of using the items you've purchased to get you there.
It's a xxxx of a lot easier to buy sausage than make it, but it's one of my favorite things to make. The funny part is, I don't even really eat sausage more than a few times a year.
If I looked at all the cooking equipment I have from a financial perspective, I'd probably be in the top 5% of stupid people on the planet, but it's alot more fun to just buy it and enjoy it.
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Did you get the raised option? I think I would probably go that route for the extra headroom. I'm not strictly Neapolitan (obviously based on this thread) so I could live with the tradeoffs.
Let me know what you think of it. I will probably eventually get the same one or possibly the 900. Same dilemma as you on cost.
No I didn't, wish I had so I could stack wood higher for larger fire.
There is so much mass, it's tough to get it all heated.
Saturday is 2nd pizza in it, so need to try for bigger fire.
Will start 4 hrs before cook time. Tried 3 hours last time, and pizza took 4-5 minutes.
With Pizza Party, I was doing 90-120 sec. cooks with one hour of fire time.
Going to go through a lot more wood, that's for sure...
That's something I've gone back and forth for years on. About 7 or 8 years ago I was within days of having a guy build me one. He knew what he was doing and started to tell me about the lead up to having a pizza party in one that he builds. Basically start the fire when you get up in the morning, keep it going all day, and by dinner time you will be all set.
I took a step back at that point to figure out what I really was looking for. There is that scenario, the hour or less scenario, and everything in between.
I really love the idea of the oven still being at 400 a day after I use it for pizza. In reality though, I wonder how often that retained heat would go to waste for various reasons. To make it even more wasteful, I typically make 4 pizzas max. Maybe I would do more parties if I had the oven for it, but something tells me I wouldn't. I'm not a real social butterfly.
What I've really been holding out for (which is fairly unrealistic but not out of the question) is building one indoors. I would use it exponentially more if that was an option. I would use it as an oven far more often if it was within a few steps of everything else in my kitchen. Even though I love bbq and pizza cooking outdoors, overall I much prefer cooking with a true kitchen setup in a temperature controlled environment indoors. Our family are builders and we both work there, so it's not THAT far fetched.
The last house we built, I had to choose between the indoor pizza oven or 48 inch rangetop. I picked the rangetop because I would use it everyday.
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This is certainly a wet dough, although, I can form it with my hands and make it look like some of the pie dough's on youtube. I currently have it in the fridge on a metal pizza serving tray (that was a bad idea). It will be staying on it as i cant even imagine trying to move this thing. Half a Wal-mart is on right now. I have started using the Memphis Pro much more in the last 10 days because of the heat. I forgotten how good it makes things.
I am really looking forward to see if this dough does what I hope it does. Sausage & Onion Lovers...
(https://i.imgur.com/YzArkH1h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lRhYpX8h.jpg)
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The cheese only looks like half, right?
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The cheese only looks like half, right?
50/50 for sure. Looks good.
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If I looked at all the cooking equipment I have from a financial perspective, I'd probably be in the top 5% of stupid people on the planet, but it's alot more fun to just buy it and enjoy it.
I would be standing right next to you as I have a ton of stuff too. More than I should and certainly more than I use frequently.
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Was a fail. But I believe that was cause by cooking temperatures. Will try again in a few days.
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Was a fail. But I believe that was cause by cooking temperatures. Will try again in a few days.
What was the fail? With all that raw sausage and raw onion in addition to a decent amount of cheese alot of moisture is being added to the pizza. You would need a substantial crust to hold up to that.
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I think I cooked it at to low a temperature. I thought I could treat it more like bread and I do not believe that is possible. Will try it at about 500° next time and see if we can get there! I was afraid if I left it out while I was doing the Wl-mart pizza and other rings it would dry out. I believe putting it in the fridge for 25 minutes was a big mistake also!
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Try bread flour. AP is nice and light but all on it's own doesn't make great flour for most dough types. It's definitely not strong enough to hold up the type of pizza you like. You may be able to get away with it for a light cheese and sparse topping pizza, but I get the feeling that is not what you enjoy.
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Another componet I forgot. Is the Boardwalk a Bread flour?
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Another componet I forgot. Is the Boardwalk a Bread flour?
Yes. I have been using primo gusto brand. I buy it at Gordon's food service. I really like it. I've only seen it there,and it is 25 pound bags. I'm sure any good bread flour would work.
I have a hunch that it would be much more manageable if you used bread flour as well. 66% is wet, but it shouldn't be nearly impossible to move at that hydration.
I've made a few all AP doughs and they almost fall open without even hardly having to stretch it. Not a good sign for a heavy pizza. If you want a thicker pie, I'd try maybe 400 g for a 12 inch pizza. Stretch it out to size. Cover with plastic wrap, and let it rise on the counter for about 30-45 minutes. Don't press it down again. Then top and bake. Your toppings should weigh down the center so you don't have a bunch of random big bubbles, but should still be more airy and light from letting is rise again after shaping.
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I think I cooked it at to low a temperature. I thought I could treat it more like bread and I do not believe that is possible. Will try it at about 500° next time and see if we can get there! I was afraid if I left it out while I was doing the Wl-mart pizza and other rings it would dry out. I believe putting it in the fridge for 25 minutes was a big mistake also!
Put your oven up to max temp, 550 I'm guessing.
Also you are right, dough-ball in fridge is a no-no.
Get yourself a container for the dough-ball.
Lightly coat the container with olive oil and the dough-ball as well.
That prevents dough from sticking to container and from drying out.
Not sure how long a ferment your recipe calls for, but dough-ball should sit in the container at room temp for 2 hrs. min, before forming it.
Below is the what we use.
Dough-ball has been cold fermenting in fridge since Wednesday. Our recipe is for a 3 day cold ferment.
Tomorrow, it will come out and be at room temp for 3 hours prior to forming.
We use a Brod & Taylor proofer for that.
Dough will rise more once it gets to room temp.
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I always make a thin/cracker crust when I cook pizza. I have always used Anna OO. I though I had seen a few folks post on here about using AP so I figured, what the heck, flour does not make a difference.
I think my biggest mistake was the flour. Will try and correct that over the weekend and see. King Arthur is about the only Bread Flour I think I am gonna find in Mayberry, but it maybe OK.
Getting the dough right makes all the difference in the World for the pizza coming out correct for the style, I have learned that. It has many components to it. But At least I have my thin/cracker dough down. Now I guess I work on Thick. And then I may give Detroit a go. Those 3 would be enough for my Pizza Jones...
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Bentley, for pizza a high protein flour works best.
Though I'd post pics on the one we just cooked.
Definite learning curve with new oven...
I used a heat shield I had made to keep the high heat from fire away from pizza for the first one I did.
Didn't use it this time, and as you can see, I need to pay closer attention for turning.
First pic just shows how dough had risen after the 3 hr room temp proofing compared to one above.
Peppers and onions didn't get as done as I'd have liked in the 3 minutes it took to cook the pizza.
Forgot to take a picture before putting in oven, so taking pic in oven added to the delay in first turn of the pizza causing the char.
I'll eventually get there...
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Looks good from here. You got a 3 minute cook with no flame? You must have had it good and saturated this time around.
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Back wall was 985ish and deck was 860ish.
Made a bigger fire than first one and started it about 3.5 hrs before cooking.
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There is nothing wrong with any area of that pie! I guess doming the vegetables would not really work? It would be fun to have one, even the most modest ones would be fun and I would get one if there was any place for it!
Found bread flour, might make some dough tomorrow!
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There is nothing wrong with any area of that pie! I guess doming the vegetables would not really work? It would be fun to have one, even the most modest ones would be fun and I would get one if there was any place for it!
Thanks...
A place for it? Thought you had a bazillion acres behind your house. ;D
Seriously though, there are some inexpensive ones that don't take a lot of room.
Bell peppers have always been a problem for me.
Onions were cooked a little more that the bell pepper.
Going to have to get the mandolin set super thin next time.
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There is nothing wrong with any area of that pie! I guess doming the vegetables would not really work? It would be fun to have one, even the most modest ones would be fun and I would get one if there was any place for it!
Thanks...
A place for it? Thought you had a bazillion acres behind your house. ;D
Seriously though, there are some inexpensive ones that don't take a lot of room.
Bell peppers have always been a problem for me.
Onions were cooked a little more that the bell pepper.
Going to have to get the mandolin set super thin next time.
30 seconds in the microwave does wonders for watery vegetables as pizza toppings. They retain the fresh flavor as opposed to a saute, and lose some of their snap with just a short stint in the microwave.
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Thanks, I will give that a shot.
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OK, off to try the Boardwalk style dough again, this time with bread flour!
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OK, off to try the Boardwalk style dough again, this time with bread flour!
Results? I made my New Haven recipe in the oven tonight. Super good, but not quite as good as the pizza oven.
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It would be considered a fail, but not due to the dough. I am also learning that the Carnagie's was baked like a deep dish in a pan, that as how it became a "thick crust". So I had no chance last night, as this information was revived after the fact. (Hey, I only ate there once) I am going to use the remaining dough tonight and do what I believe will be closer to a Boardwalk pizza. The pie will be much thinner and will cook much faster.
Do you recall how man ounces or grams your balls were?
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It would be considered a fail, but not due to the dough. I am also learning that the Carnagie's was baked like a deep dish in a pan, that as how it became a "thick crust". So I had no chance last night, as this information was revived after the fact. (Hey, I only ate there once) I am going to use the remaining dough tonight and do what I believe will be closer to a Boardwalk pizza. The pie will be much thinner and will cook much faster.
Do you recall how man ounces or grams your balls were?
250 g for 12 inch pizza.
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Used correctly it is a pretty good dough. I used more then need, but I knew I would not have enough left for a 3rd one so just used it up. 11 minutes on the Pro and tasty. Would like better toppings, but you make do with what you have. I think I am still partial to OO flour though!
(https://i.imgur.com/BiMpQu4h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LfcvPREh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GP8AyaGh.jpg)
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Looks good from here. Appears that it held up well to your toppings.
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Looks great minus the peppers though for me.
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Looks great minus the peppers though for me.
You can put the peppers on my half. ;D
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Anaheim Chilies...
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Anaheim Chilies...
Works for me.
I buy a case of roasted Anaheim chilies every year.
Been out for a few weeks so I think I will get 2 cases this year.
Stores should be roasting them pretty soon.
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Pizza from the place I got the cheesesteak yesterday. I just heated this up in the toaster oven for a few minutes and put some Tabasco Sriracha on it.
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Looks pretty solid. How was it?
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Looks pretty solid. How was it?
It was good, but it is very similar to about 10 pizza shops within 10 minutes or so of me which is why I haven't tried making my own.
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So I tried my hand at pizza. Forgot the recipe, just kind of winging it. Just kidding ya. Too dang hot to cook anything here. We did take out. This is the closest we get to what we would consider real.
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It's late, but now I want pizza, off to make dough, Pizza at 10pm!
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Did you take any wider shots of the crust? That looks really tasty.
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I do not seem to be able to get any airyness without OO. The Boardwalk style has almost twice the yeast in it and no cooking bubbles. I guess I will try the Boardwalk style with OO and see what I think!
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Did you take any wider shots of the crust? That looks really tasty.
If you are asking me, I just did. This is cold and also my breakfast. People think I am crazy but I love cold pizza and fried chicken. No hijack intended, sorry if it seems that way. They use Blodgett ovens, for wood fired we have to go to Kansas City as far as I know.
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I'm with you YorkDude, Homemade pizza for lunch today, cold pizza for breakfast tomorrow.
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Pizza for lunch today.
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Did you take any wider shots of the crust? That looks really tasty.
If you are asking me, I just did. This is cold and also my breakfast. People think I am crazy but I love cold pizza and fried chicken. No hijack intended, sorry if it seems that way. They use Blodgett ovens, for wood fired we have to go to Kansas City as far as I know.
Interesting look to the rim. Looks almost like a breadstick or something. Looks good though.
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Awesome pic 02. You loving that pizza oven?
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Awesome pic 02. You loving that pizza oven?
Thanks, still learning with it.