Pellet Fan
All Things Considered => General Discussion--Food Related => Topic started by: pmillen on October 30, 2017, 11:59:12 AM
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So I smoke a steak for a while until it's almost done. I don't think the smoke flavor penetrated very far, if at all (a marinade penetrates only about 3/16 of an inch after hours of soaking).
Then I sear it to finish for a Maillard reaction brown or possibly char. Did any of that smoke flavor survive the searing?
Your thoughts?
Has anyone blind taste-tested a reverse sear against just grilling over a direct zone or any other method?
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I've never done a blind taste test but I have prepared steaks both ways and, IMO, the seared steak had a better flavor. The problem with searing is that the final result, IT, is less predictable and the chance of over cooking is greater. :2cents:
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I would think the meat should be from the same cut for a more true test..
As smoke takes time to penetrate the meat I would think the taste differences would be negligible on a steak unless it were several inches thick.
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I like the reverse sear mainly for the control. You can almost get edge to edge doneness like sous vide without messing with the water or the bags. I don't think it tastes all that differently, but it is better presentation and easier to manage large batches in my opinion.
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Depends solely on the thickness of the meat. 2" ribeye doesn't do real well with direct sear. Needs a little baking at first. Also low and slow gives it an opportunity to pick up a little extra smoke. :cool: JMHO
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Have never done a blind taste test but I prefer reverse sear.
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I've never done a blind taste test but I have prepared steaks both ways and, IMO, the seared steak had a better flavor. The problem with searing is that the final result, IT, is less predictable and the chance of over cooking is greater. :2cents:
The better flavor may have been generated by the sear. Was there any smoke flavor left or did the sear burn it off?
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Have never done a blind taste test but I prefer reverse sear.
How about sear cooking without first smoking? Have you tried that?
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The better flavor may have been generated by the sear. Was there any smoke flavor left or did the sear burn it off?
I was an advocate of reverse sear long before I discovered pellet smoking. When I reverse sear a smoked steak , to me, there was a definite smoky component.
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I like the reverse sear mainly for the control. You can almost get edge to edge doneness like sous vide without messing with the water or the bags. I don't think it tastes all that differently, but it is better presentation and easier to manage large batches in my opinion.
+1
I do see a smoke ring on a larger piece of meat like a tri tip, but it's really the control to get right where I want to on IT that makes it worth doin'.
DK
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IMHO totally worth doing. I always reverse sear now. We could never cook steaks before, always had issues with doneness and flavor. Once I got a pellet grill and reverse seared, been no looking back. We did some 1.5"+ thick NY steaks Sat, simply awesome. I might be able to do just high heat sear till done now that I have cooked more steaks. But the slow smoking definitely makes a difference in tenderness and flavor for us, plus the smoke ring as mentioned by DK.
If you do not think you are noticing a difference here is an experiment for you. Put the steaks in your oven at the same temp you smoke at and cook just as if smoking, then do your searing as usual and see what you think. Ultimate true taste test would be to do half smoked, half baked and then have a side by side taste test. Some people just do not pickup the subtle smoke flavor, others do.
You can also try using different woods, and use a 100% pure single flavor wood, 100% hickory, 100% mesquite, etc which can make a more distinct flavor than blends do.
Here is what I do when I reverse sear:
I know some people say you should never flip more than once, I have always flipped numerous times to let the high heat work both sides evenly thru the cook. The times here are what usually work for us, the temp of your grill will have a significant affect on sear time. The last 2 min often gets cut short on my cooks, I am watching temp closely to hit desired temp for my guests. Some like 140, some like more done. The set this weekend spiked in last 2 min and went into upper 150's. They had just a faint glimmer of pink left so overdone a bit by most standards, but very juicey still and super tender.
Pull steaks out of fridge and coat with rub of choice,
Let the steaks sit out with while I set my rectec to 180* xtreme smoke and let it come to temp.
Then on they go and stay in smoke until they reach ~100*IT, I use a tappeque to monitor.
Pull them off, cover with foil while Rectec climbs to max temp.
I have grill grates for searing and On they go for:
- 2min
- then flip
- 2min
- flip and rotate 45-90* to get crossed sear marks.
- 2min
- flip and rotate 45-90* again.
- 2min
DONE! We have tried letting them sit and not. We all prefer them super hot fresh off the grill in my house so they only sit long enough for people to dish up whatever else they are planning to have with dinner.
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This is a copy and Paste on how Fast Eddy cooks his Steaks and Tators...on a FE Pellet Grill.
Thanks Ed, I took good notes (via copy and Paste of course)
Re: Let's see a step by step guide to cooking a Steak on the Fast Eddy Grill! FAST EDDY
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2010, 11:31:16 PM »
OK here is my Typical steak dinner
First I like baked potatoes with my steaks so I go out and turn the grill on at 400 and put potatoes on the top rack right side. I run them for about 40min. Then I go and turn the unit to 200. I normally cook a 1 inch thick ribeye. I put the steaks on the botton right for 20min. Then I'll go out and turn the unit to 550. I do not open the lid. I wait for 4 min then I open it up and put the steaks right over the fire on the "charbroiler" for 2 min a side. Go get a plate and your ready to eat a nice med cooked ribeye. If I have someone who wants a more well done steak then it goes back to the indirect to finish. If it is a strip cut, you'll most likely need to go back indirect because of the density of that muscle seems to cook longer for the same doneness. I don't wrap my potatoes either. Just wash em and throw them on.
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I've eaten them smoked low and slow to the preferred IT and done them smoked to just below the preferred IT and then reverse seared. I always think the reverse sear tastes better and so do the girls. Can't tell you why, it's just how I prefer them. Seems like I remember reading the science behind it on PH, but I've slept since then and could be wrong.
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To me the results are so far superior when doing a reverse sear that I’m surprised it’s being debated. I definitely get great smoky flavor and am able to cook them to a perfect medium rare. I agree as others have stated the main benefit of the reverse sear is control of the finished temperature, the smoky flavor is just a bonus.
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Have reverse seared on steaks 1" thick and everything in between up to full Prime Rib. Once you get it down it produces great results.
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I much prefer the reverse sear method. Easier to nail desired IT. IMO, produces a more tender steak. IMO, produces a more flavorful steak. And it allows me a bit more time to just hang out by the grill and enjoy the smoke-aroma therapy :)
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I do not like the texture that the reverse sear imparts to meat, that is why I do not do it.
But thank you for an Inspirational thread...Ideas for Pellet Fan University Testing at the American Royal. (https://pelletfan.com/index.php?topic=985.msg10501#msg10501)
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I've done a whole bunch of direct and reverse sear the last couple months mostly with porterhouse cuts, learned much along the way and have drawn some conclusions as to what looks and tastes the best.
Until I really mastered the charbroiler on the PG 500 I was liking the reverse sear the best for flavor, was even using the warming drawer for extended smoking and raising the internal temps before a fast final finish over the charbroiler grates.
What I have found is that the charbroiler using a direct method constantly turning the steaks makes a better meal and I don't think most grills are even capable of getting hot enough to do it properly.
When I started out direct searing it was using the one sided technique, rotating 90* halfway through and then turning to finish. The maillard reaction never looked or tasted the way I wanted it to and using a 2" cut it was done in 5-6 minutes this way.
Cranking the PG 500 up to a preheat setting of 500* and direct searing for a minute a side then turning and repeating has produced the best appearance and taste for me. It also extends the cooking time to get internal temps to medium range by 50% more than just the one and done technique.
I've given a bunch of porterhouses away to happy taste testers this season and they seem to like the direct method turning regularly to finish the best and I've settled on it as my go to method now.
This is only even remotely possible by the way using a MK4 Thermapen, no way your using anything else over that much heat to get numbers to pull them.
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You preheat the PG500 to 500°F and cook a thick steak one minute per side and it's done?
Is it warm in the middle?
Door open?
What controller settings (LHt/HHt)?
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I suspect the PG500 is close to 1000 degrees at grate level directly over the fire when the temp is set to 500.
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You preheat the PG500 to 500°F and cook a thick steak one minute per side and it's done?
Is it warm in the middle?
Door open?
What controller settings (LHt/HHt)?
NO lol! I keep turning it, no more than a minute a side for example a 2" porterhouse is going to take 8+ minutes that way.
I should have done a better job clarifying that. Also, I like to keep the sear marks running just one direction now as well it seems to have a better finished appearance that way.
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NO lol! I keep turning it, no more than a minute a side for example a 2" porterhouse is going to take 8+ minutes that way.
I should have done a better job clarifying that.
No, you did a fine job of explaining it. You wrote , "[D]irect searing for a minute a side then turning and repeating..." I simply missed the point.
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I only do reverse sear now... it is almost foolproof...
BUT air REQUIRES a thermometer with a probe.
I set my thermometer for 117 and set by smoker to Low and slow, about 225 on my PG500.
Let it run till I hear the beep.
Take out the steaks, crank my PG500 to BROIL (600deg) and let it get HOT HOT HOT.
It never gets to the set temp, but the grates get hot hot and the pit starts to glow. It’s H O T.
1 min per side is about all I need to get a nice char. 45seconds if I want to cross hatch, flip and turn 90deg, it cools slightly so the extra 15 seconds is ok. Either case, I get black and purple every time.
PS... Don’t just turn off your grill if it is really really hot, do a cool down of some kind. Even if it means just running it at 170deg with it open for 15 min, make sure the auger is not too hot when you shut down, I have had hopper smolders because the end of the auger was so hot...the pellets were coming out pre-lit... little fire balls...
Don’t try it without a probe, you will waste good meat.
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I reverse sear but use the sear station on the gasser to finish. In smoker till about 115 then move over to the gasser to sear on very high temp. The sear station is advertised as being able to hit 1000. Not sure I believe that but it does get plenty hot.
After reading some of your methods I’m gonna give searing only with multiple flips a chance.
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With reverse sear, you get wall to wall doneness (i.e. Medium/Rare) with a charred surface. I don't do it because I don't like it that way. I (we) like the medium rare in the middle with thicker doneness at the walls. I think it is because of the firmer texture. It still is juicy (esp with prime meat). Perhaps a little harder to duplicate each time. Will I be punished?
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I reverse sear thicker cuts like ribeye. I usually smoke for about an hour at 200, pull to rest at about 115. During the rest I bring the smoker temp up to 500 with Grill Grates. Then I sear them to medium rare. I get a really nice smoke flavor doing it this way. [ Invalid Attachment ]
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Will I be punished?
How dare you not conform!!
I'm sending a herd of stampeding pigs over your way right now . . . you should see them any minute! :pig: :pig: :pig:
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Will I be punished?
How dare you not conform!!
I'm sending a herd of stampeding pigs over your way right now . . . you should see them any minute! :pig: :pig: :pig:
If I see any pigs around here, they will be sacrificed, dressed and pitted in short order. I send back the hooves. :clap: :clap:
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Will I be punished?
How dare you not conform!!
I'm sending a herd of stampeding pigs over your way right now . . . you should see them any minute! :pig: :pig: :pig:
I'm a lot closer than Oklahoma to you, send those baby backs my way. [ Invalid Attachment ]
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With reverse sear, you get wall to wall doneness (i.e. Medium/Rare) with a charred surface. I don't do it because I don't like it that way. I (we) like the medium rare in the middle with thicker doneness at the walls. I think it is because of the firmer texture. It still is juicy (esp with prime meat). Perhaps a little harder to duplicate each time. Will I be punished?
With reverse sear, you get wall to wall doneness (i.e. Medium/Rare) with a charred surface. I don't do it because I don't like it that way. I (we) like the medium rare in the middle with thicker doneness at the walls. I think it is because of the firmer texture. It still is juicy (esp with prime meat). Perhaps a little harder to duplicate each time. Will I be punished?
We like it a bit more like you as well. When I reverse sear I always get thicker steaks 1-1.5", it helps by making for a wider margin of error in cook time in my experience.
I only smoke till approx 100*. Pull, foil and crank up the 680 on full with grill grates and let it stabilize.
Then I am watching temp to hit our preferred internal while doing the searing. Pulling at lower IT, means more time searing which will produce more of that firm/done edge that you like. Might be worth a try.
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With reverse sear, you get wall to wall doneness (i.e. Medium/Rare) with a charred surface. I don't do it because I don't like it that way. I (we) like the medium rare in the middle with thicker doneness at the walls. I think it is because of the firmer texture. It still is juicy (esp with prime meat). Perhaps a little harder to duplicate each time. Will I be punished?
With reverse sear, you get wall to wall doneness (i.e. Medium/Rare) with a charred surface. I don't do it because I don't like it that way. I (we) like the medium rare in the middle with thicker doneness at the walls. I think it is because of the firmer texture. It still is juicy (esp with prime meat). Perhaps a little harder to duplicate each time. Will I be punished?
We like it a bit more like you as well. When I reverse sear I always get thicker steaks 1-1.5", it helps by making for a wider margin of error in cook time in my experience.
I only smoke till approx 100*. Pull, foil and crank up the 680 on full with grill grates and let it stabilize.
Then I am watching temp to hit our preferred internal while doing the searing. Pulling at lower IT, means more time searing which will produce more of that firm/done edge that you like. Might be worth a try.
Good idea, but I don't have the sear kit and the extra smoke flavor for steaks and chops are not our priority. I get nice searing with my GrillGrates and the GS turned up to 500* BWTHDIK? Besides, grilling is about 15-20 minutes as opposed to around an hour if you reverse sear them. I will reserve my smoking for low slow cooks. Bony appetite! :2cents:
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My original post–
So I smoke a steak for a while until it's almost done. Then I sear it to finish for a Maillard reaction brown or possibly char. Did any of that smoke flavor survive the searing?
I made three separate tests; two rib-eye tests and one T-bone test. Here are my results–
How Deep Does The Smoke Flavor Penetrate a Steak?
For each test I cut out a bite-sized piece of a smoked steak and discarded as little of the top and bottom surfaces as I could, probably 1/32 to 1/16 of an inch. We then tasted the remaining meat for smoke flavor. Marcia and I tested every test. Four other family members participated once each.
The consensus was that the smoke flavor doesn't seem to penetrate a steak at all. I thought that it might penetrate as deep as a typical smoke ring. Nope. It appears to sit on the surface. On to the next test step.
Does the Smoke Flavor Survive Searing?
For this test I cut out a bite-sized piece of a smoked & seared steak and trimmed off about 3/16" of the two surfaces. We tasted them, searching for smoke flavor. We found Maillard reaction browning flavor and some char flavor. It was difficult to differentiate between those and a smoke flavor. We all took our best guesses but the votes were split evenly.
So, to answer my question, "Is it worth doin'?" Free Mr Tony suggests on this thread's page one that, "You can almost get edge to edge doneness like sous vide..." That hasn't been my experience.
(https://p6qnmg.ch.files.1drv.com/y4movM4sgCwtrlc5PPAr9kggaV-0ACiKKr9fV9GuvGDIs5I15w_jfYyLRd3azI2RT5Dsxy1Ku49IFKEbM7_clX9w0kKGOa3U_xPIfvDnnAsO5Jh6wAEXAtBdHi9EKyHY72MsbG-uAR6AePFna7ughD8chZqiTPhyGKKE-WStRi0PLQDNThQo0FY9zlEcZzQM0xTshNwbDNG720RldJYR21Cjg?width=256&height=162&cropmode=none) Either reverse seared or seared first, my steaks look like this, cooked more on top and bottom than in the middle.
(https://lh811q.ch.files.1drv.com/y4mZwad34kgfS2yvmpIzq2_cDB2yZGw0QGyQiBM6Z8r1A9MH1Dw8OQFQr3TTo-uL9kcu5XQoCr12Gg0oE8TwjGmyBiGlpCzrod_XQ9p5Mte_Eqi7GwX0Ylk4uMdvt84OZ9G9xTjdQTWPXbb8kQbDrqTDjCJVU8YWVKcBAXw5Ysf1UzkN_cttKW1u3fi0J4xQsZw_1ZcPlEDo7PARRr-uzC2aA?width=256&height=149&cropmode=none) A steak seared after sous-vide cooking usually looks like this. (Of course smoke flavors will be absent.)
My conclusion (YMMV), we all like what we like and we'll probably continue to cook our steaks in the same fashion. For me, I'm going to sear first and then smoke.
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What was your reverse sear process and what kind of wood pellets did you use? I use 100% hickory and always get a pronounced smoke flavor by smoking for around an hour first.
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What was your reverse sear process and what kind of wood pellets did you use? I use 100% hickory and always get a pronounced smoke flavor by smoking for around an hour first.
I'd smoke a cold steak at 200°F with oak until the IT was 120°F. Then I'd sear over direct flame twice and a frying pan once.
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I’d try hickory, mesquite or oak blended with one of those. Oak by itself doesn’t have much flavor IMO.
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What was your reverse sear process and what kind of wood pellets did you use? I use 100% hickory and always get a pronounced smoke flavor by smoking for around an hour first.
I'd smoke a cold steak at 200°F with oak until the IT was 120°F. Then I'd sear over direct flame twice and a frying pan once.
That sounds like too much high temp searing, and a bit high temp for the sous Vide.
When I reverse sear I set my RecTec on Min temp (180* and I know it runs a hair cool, so probably 160-170* actual). I take them only to internal 100*.
Then I oull them off and foil and fire up the RT to max, that often takes a while and the steaks will peak and start to cool a little before it is up to full temp.
On the RT with grill grates to sear until desired IT (135ish for my family). I usually flip/turn every 1-2min to get criss-cross sear marks.
I just got in my Rectec bullseye, so I will start tinkering with that a bit and likely pull the steaks out of smoke a little earlier since they will not rest and start to cool, but go straight to searing. Hopefully it is much hotter than the 680 so not need to sear as long either.
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I usually get good wall to wall red with reverse sear
That is gents and ladies, the prefect reverse sear. Congrats!
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I'd smoke a cold steak at 200°F with oak until the IT was 120°F. Then I'd sear over direct flame twice and a frying pan once.
That sounds like too much high temp searing,
Yeah, the way I wrote it, lamrith, it's waaaay too much searing. What I meant to convey is that in two tests I seared in the pit's direct zone and in the third test I used a hot frying pan.
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I'd smoke a cold steak at 200°F with oak until the IT was 120°F. Then I'd sear over direct flame twice and a frying pan once.
That sounds like too much high temp searing,
Yeah, the way I wrote it, lamrith, it's waaaay too much searing. What I meant to convey is that in two tests I seared in the pit's direct zone and in the third test I used a hot frying pan.
I had a feeling that is what you meant, but never know so I had to ask!
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Let us know how you like that Bullseye. I’m considering getting one for high heat grilling.
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Thin steaks I would say no but Tri tip yes.
Mudflap
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I do not reverse sear, I do not like the end result in taste. Slow cook to medium rare and eat baby.
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Reverse sear is the way to go. With thick steaks like we get from Costco we can go 2 hours at 175 and get to around 115 then transfer to a smokin hot gas grill for a quick sear. Heck we reverse sear hamburgers, but usually only for an hour. Every person I've ever made a steak for using Costco meat and a reverse sear has devoured their steak and proclaimed it the best they've ever had. Every person I've ever made a hamburger for has said it's the best they've ever had. No exaggerations. They've never tasted anything like it. And it's wonderful to get rare or medium rare steaks with no gray on the edges. You can't beat an hour or two in the smoke. They come out juicy and flavorful and I don't find anything off putting about the texture. I'm sure the seasonings help but the smoke is the star. Just my :2cents:
And if you love steak with reverse sear, get the rack of lamb at Costco and cut it into two bone pieces and give it the reverse sear treatment. Out of this world.
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I do not reverse sear, I do not like the end result in taste. Slow cook to medium rare and eat baby.
A rancher who allows us to hunt on his land cooked steaks for us on his Traeger as you describe. They were outstanding and when I found out it was also a smoker I wanted a pellet pit. That started me down the path.