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Author Topic: PID controlled pits  (Read 3029 times)

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okie smokie

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PID controlled pits
« on: April 08, 2018, 10:08:25 AM »

Since we have occ. discussed PID controllers and their advantages (or disadvantages?), it would be useful to know what products contain them as original equipment.  I would start of by listing those I know of:
Blaz'n
Danson's
Memphis
FireCraft

Who else? 
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cookingjnj

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2018, 11:55:17 AM »

RecTec uses a PID controller on the 680 and I believe on the 300 as well. Pretty sure they are used with the new line up of pits as well.
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hokiepop

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2018, 12:12:26 PM »

Kuma uses a PID controller
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Conumdrum

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2018, 01:38:44 PM »

I think the Yoders use a custom software and they do it their way.  I distinctly remember someone from Yoder saying it's not PID.  PID is just a way of controlling any heat/force/vacuum/etc. with a feedback loop, i.e. the temp probe in smokers.  How it's implemented to control any required physical value is up to the hardware used and the programmers/engineers.

Yoder might be saying we don't use any available PID controllers, they made their own way of doing it.

At my job before I retired we had at least 8 different feedback loops for temp, pressure, mechanical force, measurements, and ink density on paper.  They all did the same thing, but in different ways.

PID Wiki kinda shows it's just a mathematical calculation and can be implemented in a bazillion ways.
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Started with Masterbuilt 30 analog, now my cold smoker Got a YS640 3+ years, happy camper Got a Weber performer with a Vortex, best charcoal grill ever Sold my gasser, Retired, gardening, clean, cook.Life is good!

BigDave83

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2018, 03:54:38 PM »

Outlaw/Sawtooth
Royall
GMG
Pellet Pro
Treager Timberline

I think all of the above are a PID or offer one.
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wilpark

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2018, 10:12:16 AM »

Smokin Brothers.
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triplebq

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2018, 10:51:12 AM »

They all did the same thing, but in different ways.

PID Wiki kinda shows it's just a mathematical calculation and can be implemented in a bazillion ways.

I could not agree with you more. I have cooked on a Cookshack, Yoder, and now Blaz'n and I have always felt the PID discussion is overblown. All of the controllers/units I have used have produced some great Que. I see the PID discussion more as markerting than anything else. Other views may vary  ;D
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Th3Batman86

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2018, 12:21:33 PM »

I have a RecTec with a PID and a Traeger Juior Elite with just a plain jane controller. The difference is night and day to me. The traeger would hold =/-15 degrees and have swings constantly with weather. The RecTec holds at whatever I set it at no matter the conditions.
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triplebq

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2018, 01:33:38 PM »

I agree with your statement, I just don't believe it makes a difference. My PID controller on my Blaz'n always shows the temp at it's set/actual point. My cookshack will show a variance above and below the set point at times.
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okie smokie

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2018, 01:37:21 PM »

They all did the same thing, but in different ways.

PID Wiki kinda shows it's just a mathematical calculation and can be implemented in a bazillion ways.

I could not agree with you more. I have cooked on a Cookshack, Yoder, and now Blaz'n and I have always felt the PID discussion is overblown. All of the controllers/units I have used have produced some great Que. I see the PID discussion more as markerting than anything else. Other views may vary  ;D
I beg to disagree.  Yes you can make good Q with either, but PID is an improvement in cooking management IMHO.  I suspect that eventually, all the major pellet pit makers will incorporate them into their designs. Main concern is the price difference between digital type and PID type, which I expect will be resolved with demand. 
Bet we all remember the cost of the early LED flat TV.  Outrageous then but now about 1/4 of the cost.  As for advantages of PID over the standard digital, first is the ability to adjust it to your pit.  The algorithms can be adjusted to make sure the selected temp is very close to the actual temp on the grill grate.  For the more sophisticated (you know who you are) there are several other adjustments that are available.  There are complaints that tighter temp control results in less smoke flavor in your finished product.  That is adjustable also, and most PID controls are set to produce more smoke at lower temps.  Bottom line--Progress, don't knock it.  Go with it.   :2cents:
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Ross77

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2018, 01:47:05 PM »

I agree with your statement, I just don't believe it makes a difference. My PID controller on my Blaz'n always shows the temp at it's set/actual point. My cookshack will show a variance above and below the set point at times.

Interesting, my RecTec 680 temp does vary when the display is set to actual.
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slaga

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2018, 03:06:58 PM »

They all did the same thing, but in different ways.

PID Wiki kinda shows it's just a mathematical calculation and can be implemented in a bazillion ways.

I could not agree with you more. I have cooked on a Cookshack, Yoder, and now Blaz'n and I have always felt the PID discussion is overblown. All of the controllers/units I have used have produced some great Que. I see the PID discussion more as markerting than anything else. Other views may vary  ;D
I beg to disagree.  Yes you can make good Q with either, but PID is an improvement in cooking management IMHO.  I suspect that eventually, all the major pellet pit makers will incorporate them into their designs. Main concern is the price difference between digital type and PID type, which I expect will be resolved with demand. 
Bet we all remember the cost of the early LED flat TV.  Outrageous then but now about 1/4 of the cost.  As for advantages of PID over the standard digital, first is the ability to adjust it to your pit.  The algorithms can be adjusted to make sure the selected temp is very close to the actual temp on the grill grate.  For the more sophisticated (you know who you are) there are several other adjustments that are available.  There are complaints that tighter temp control results in less smoke flavor in your finished product.  That is adjustable also, and most PID controls are set to produce more smoke at lower temps.  Bottom line--Progress, don't knock it.  Go with it.   :2cents:

Although my favorite controller is the Savannah Stoker controller, I very much disagree with the bolded part. A straight up PID controller falls 3rd on my list.

My personal hierarchy of controllers:

1) Savannah Stoker (Hybrid - because it can run in PID mode or completely disregard the PID algorithms) - What puts this controller on top, in my opinion, is its ability the ignore the PID when I want it to. This controller lets the end user run in PID mode or manual mode (completely ignoring the PID) and runs at a constant duty cycle (perfect for grilling).  It lets you set the low duty cycle and high duty cycle in 1% increments, meaning I can use it on my Traeger and have my Traeger run anywhere between P5 and P0 as it needs to maintain around 150* for smoking jerky. Set up properly for the cook, even if I open the door to do something the controller will never dump more than my high duty cycle which can be set similar to P0, P1, P2, etc., whatever I choose for that cook.

2) Fast Eddy PG500 type controller - This one is not PID. It lets the end user pick the low duty cycle and the high duty cycle. It just oscillates back and forth depending on whether the grill temp is above or below the set temperature. You can have the duty cycles set the same or 1 setting off from one another and have a constant flame for grilling. That is something a PID controller does not do. You can adjust the low duty and high duty cycles so you can control the temp swing to some degree. With a PID, you are at the mercy of the algorithms and the temp swing is what it is.

3) Straight up PID controller or any other mathematical driven controller - This is your Yoder, Rec Tec, GMG, etc. They do a fine job at what they are designed to do, maintaining smoking temperatures in the pit. They are not designed to maintain a certain flame for grilling or give the end user options to limit the low and high duty cycles for certain situations. There is no adjustment for temp swings. They do what their math tells them to do.

4) Simple controllers that have set low duty cycles and high duty cycles, that for the most part, are not very adjustable. This is your Traeger digital controller and Ortech controller.

5) Lastly is the Traeger low/med/hi controller.
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Ross77

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2018, 03:15:30 PM »

I think the new RecTec controllers allow you make more adjustments to various parameters.

The standard Lo setting just runs at the slowest auger speed and the Full setting runs at the highest auger speed. Neither of those settings do anything to maintain a temp. Would that also be considered a hybrid?

Then you have the Bullseye controller which is a basic knob that only controls the auger speed.
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triplebq

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2018, 04:15:36 PM »

but PID is an improvement in cooking management IMHO. 

This is probably where I disagree with most. I see a PID controller as a different type of controller, not necessarily a better type of controller. I think somewhere along the way we became hooked on the belief that a pit should maintain a set temp the entire cook. Like everything in this world, there are multiple ways to do everything.
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ScottWood

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Re: PID controlled pits
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2018, 04:22:29 PM »

but PID is an improvement in cooking management IMHO. 

This is probably where I disagree with most. I see a PID controller as a different type of controller, not necessarily a better type of controller. I think somewhere along the way we became hooked on the belief that a pit should maintain a set temp the entire cook. Like everything in this world, there are multiple ways to do everything.

I tend to agree.  None of my 3 cookers have PID type controllers simply because the "regular" controllers work just fine for me.  I don't see the need to spend the money to upgrade them when I could be spending that money on meat and beer.  Now, if one of my controllers were to fail I would consider a PID as a replacement.

I also understand that the pit temps fluctuate, sometimes quite a bit, but over a long cook it all averages out, probably more so than when I was managing the fire in the offset I used to cook on.  :-)
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