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[LowSlowJoe]

Hey folks...   I recently slow roasted a couple turkey breasts , that were... well to be honest, they may have been the most juicy and flavorful turkey breast I've ever had...   

I started my PG500,  got the upper shelf area where I intended to cook the two turkey breasts, up to right around 335F, the grill was set to get up towards 375F.    I put the two thick turkey breasts on, with a Fireworks meat probe in the thickest part , of the thinnest breast.    I left the breast cooking at that moderately high temperature until the turkey's internal temperature went from 50F on through 100F...  this 50F increase took just 15 minutes.    I then lowered the temperature of the grill to around 225F and continued to monitor the temperature of the breast , another 15 minutes had passed, before the grill's temperature had dropped down to 225F, by this time the internal temperature of that breast had hit 130F, and was continuing to rise.  After another 15 minutes, with the grill temperature at 225F, the turkey had gone up to 130F ( this after a total of 45 minutes had passed ).   My target temperature for this breast was 145F, and I intended to hold that temperature for at least 15 minutes, but didn't want to go much above that temperature, so I lowered the grill temperature a bit further, down to about 200F and continued to monitor progress..   after the 4th 15 minute interval, that turkey breast was at 142F ( 1 hour total cooking time at this point ).   I double checked the turkey's temperature using a Thermoworks Thermopop and found that the Fireboard probe and the Thermopop both agreed that the breast had achieved 142F.    Growing a little concerned that my breast's internal temperature rise had slowed too much, I increased the grill temperature to 225F again.  I pulled the probe from the thinner breast and moved it to the thicker breast, the temperature of that breast was a little cooler, but not by more then 2F total....   I continued to monitor the grill temperature and now the thicker breast's temperature... 20 minutes later I pulled the thinner breast after verifying it had indeed reached 145F, I left the thicker breast on the grill...   I continued to monitor the temperature of the thinner breast by leaving the Thermopop in the breast...

  The thinner breasts held that 145F for another 10 minutes as it sat on my counter...  at this point it had been above 141F for at least 30 minutes and right around 145F for 15 minutes...    I cut open the breast, and ate some of it...  then put it in a zip-lock bag  then placed it in the refrigerator to cool down... I intended this to be lunch meat...

   The thicker breast remained on the grill for another 15 minutes, during which time, it's internal temperature went from 141F to 147F, when I brought this breast in the house, I again left a Thermopop in the breasts and watched as the breast's internal temperature continued to rise, before eventually peaking at 150F about 8 or 9 minutes later... this breast immediately went into the refrigerator after it's resting temperature had peaked.


   So...    Am I crazy to do this?   

   I think the method I used, achieved at least 7-log lethality of Salmonella,  based on information in the FSIS Salmonella Compliance Guidelines for Small and Very Small Meat and Poultry Establishments that Produce Ready-to-Eat (RTE) Products and Revised Appendix A June 2017 document.   

   The only doubts that I have, at all , related to the fact that I did not use any method to keep humidity up at very high levels ( 90%)...   That FSIS document talks about using 90% humidity to control evaporative cooling and germs's resistance to heat in drier environments, etc...    My doubts are actually mostly over ridden, by the fact that my turkey breast was far from being dry, with the only possible exception being right at the skin itself...  Now, being that I started the process above 300F, it is my belief that the likely hood that that outer surface had not reached the 165F needed to kill Salmonella in under 10 seconds, not more then 30 minutes into my cooking process.  Given the fact that the center of these breasts easily hit 140F within one hour of being on the grill, it seems almost unimaginable to me that the surface of these breasts would not have gotten up to 165F much before that.   

   So, anyway...      if I were to do this again, I would probably not cut it so close on time/temperature...  I would very likely use 155F as my target temperature... and I would only lower the grills temperature to right around 250F.   On page 17 of that FSIS document, it clearly states that the addition of humidity is unnesesary if the oven maintails at least 250F throughout the process of achieving the time/temperature combinations in the charts...      I'd go for the 155F, simply because that leaves a good margin of error... after all with 12% fat turkey ( which my breast was WAY bellow ), one needs only hit 155F for 1.3 minutes to achieve 7-log lethality of Salmonella...    I mean there's no particular reason I really need to eat Turkey that's just 145F... 

   I will say... that 145F temperature turkey was, about the best turkey I ever had...   Very moist... and the flavor and texture was excellent.   

   On a Facebook group I belong too...  the majority of folks had some serious doubts about my sanity... some in fact ridiculed me.  All to be expected I guess...   But, hey I do believe my thoughts on this are sound, and at the very least, I think a lot of people would be better at cooking poultry if they realized that you don't REALLY need to take poultry up to 165F and beyond to have safe to eat poultry.   But, clearly it's hard to convince people that that 165F that the USDA touts so much , is not the only way to be safe.    I'm sure folks here, have a better grasp on things, so I certainly do not fear ridicule from this group.

    I do intentionally bring it up here, because I do think it's important , for people who want to improved there cooking skills to understand there is more than one way to cook safely...

 FYI  -   here is a link the the FSIS document I mentioned...     https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/connect/bf3f01a1-a0b7-4902-a2df-a87c73d1b633/Salmonella-Compliance-Guideline-SVSP-RTE-Appendix-A.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

   Some who've seen the photo of the meat remarked they would never eat poultry that was this color... I can understand that some may never be comfortable

[hughver]

I don't think so, I do it all of the time. 

[LowSlowJoe]

I don't think so, I do it all of the time. 

So, what's  your basic method ?

[dk117]

LSJ, your picture looks a little under to me.   But I confess, when I made the move from 180 to 160 fifteen or so years ago I became the go-to guy on thanksgiving and now year round.    My kids will never have to experience the overdone 175 180 190 bird I grew up with.    Still I'm not ready to pull a breast at 145.  I'll go 160 and haven't had a problem with moisture or flavor in years. 

DK

[sleebus.jones]

Cool experiment.  I pull my turkey at 160° when I do them and they always turn out great.  I could be convinced to do 155°, as the 1.3 minutes is not hard to achieve.  I'd likely only do this with a breast though, as the thighs/legs do better at higher temps, like around 170°.  I think a 155° leg/thigh would be kinda weird and not good...it needs some heat to break down the connective tissue.

[LowSlowJoe]

LSJ, your picture looks a little under to me.   But I confess, when I made the move from 180 to 160 fifteen or so years ago I became the go-to guy on thanksgiving and now year round.    My kids will never have to experience the overdone 175 180 190 bird I grew up with.    Still I'm not ready to pull a breast at 145.  I'll go 160 and haven't had a problem with moisture or flavor in years. 

DK

Admittedly , 145F is pretty low. However, I'm convinced it's safe... and as I said, it actually tasted GREAT.  It also looked 'less' pink in person... those pictures make it look really pink.         

 I think the main thing that anyone could or should be able to get , by actually understanding time/temperature to kill stuff, can get is...      Even if you try for say 160F, your going to get a much more juicy outcome than if you try for 165F and go 5F past it.  I mean, just look at the chart... for 12% fat Turkey, at 160F, it takes just 27 seconds to do a 7-log leathality...       Heck, by the time you take the bird out of the grill/oven, and put it on the counter, that 27 seconds will have passed.  Heck, even at 156F, it's only 1 minute to kill Salmonella to that degree...     

IMHO, there's absolutely no good reason to take a Turkey up to 165F and beyond...   Now, I myself failed on Thanksgiving day, because I was hectically trying to get other stuff done, and my turkey on Thanksgiving ended up around 175F before I knew it...   I should have been much more careful.

 

[LowSlowJoe]

Cool experiment.  I pull my turkey at 160° when I do them and they always turn out great.  I could be convinced to do 155°, as the 1.3 minutes is not hard to achieve.  I'd likely only do this with a breast though, as the thighs/legs do better at higher temps, like around 170°.  I think a 155° leg/thigh would be kinda weird and not good...it needs some heat to break down the connective tissue.

Chances are if your breast is at , say 155F, your legs and thighs are probably already at 165F.       

[dk117]

I failed to mention here as I previously mentioned in another tread.  I cook the legs and the breast separately now.    The giant drumsticks I still take past 175 with no ill outcomes and wonderful taste and texture.  It's the bone in breast that I'll go 160 to 165. 

DK

[LowSlowJoe]

Yeah, well it's darn near impossible to dry out a hunk of dark meat... certainly 175F isn't going to make it dry...

[hughver]

I don't think so, I do it all of the time. 

So, what's  your basic method ?

If I use the pit for the full cook, I start out at 200° and when the IT reaches 130°, lower the pit temperature to 160° until the center IT reaches 145° . However, I mostly smoke at 150°-160° for an hour or so and then sous vide to 145° and sear briefly.

[Ssteppe]

I sous vide chicken breasts at 140 F, so 145 for a turkey breast should be OK, as long as it's held at that temp for long enough.
Legs and thighs are a different matter - need to go higher on those.

[LowSlowJoe]

I sous vide chicken breasts at 140 F, so 145 for a turkey breast should be OK, as long as it's held at that temp for long enough.
Legs and thighs are a different matter - need to go higher on those.

Why higher on legs and thighs?    For texture purposes? or are you saying they are somehow not possible to kill all nasty stuff , because of some unique properties of the legs and thighs?   ( if so, I'd love to see some documentation for that )

[hughver]

The legs and thighs have much more connective tissue than the breast so the higher temperature is necessary for the same reason that chuck/brisket need higher temperature, to mitigate toughness.

[pmillen]

"Turkey at 145F internal... is it madness?"

I don't think so.  In mid-November, I posted in another thread that I was going to pull my breast after 3 minutes at 150°.  It was based on that same chart.

[Ssteppe]

I sous vide chicken breasts at 140 F, so 145 for a turkey breast should be OK, as long as it's held at that temp for long enough.
Legs and thighs are a different matter - need to go higher on those.

Why higher on legs and thighs?    For texture purposes? or are you saying they are somehow not possible to kill all nasty stuff , because of some unique properties of the legs and thighs?   ( if so, I'd love to see some documentation for that )

Mainly for aesthetics - pink or red around the bone is offputting. Also, most sous vide sites prefer at least 145-149 for legs for best texture.