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Author Topic: Over the cliff  (Read 2455 times)

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Kristin Meredith

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2020, 03:29:30 PM »

Just something to share and feel free to share with others because we need to calm down as a nation.


From Dr. Paul Offit:  (First a little background on Dr. Offit from Wikipedia):

   
Paul Allan Offit (born 27 March 1951) is an American pediatrician specializing in infectious diseases, vaccines, immunology, and virology. He is the co-inventor of a rotavirus vaccine. Offit is the Maurice R. Hilleman Professor of Vaccinology, Professor of Pediatrics at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania, Former Chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases (1992-2014), and the Director of the Vaccine Education Center at The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. He has been a member of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. Offit is a Board Member of Every Child By Two and a Founding Board Member of the Autism Science Foundation (ASF).

Offit has published more than 130 papers in medical and scientific journals in the areas of rotavirus-specific immune responses and vaccine safety, and is the author or co-author of books on vaccines, vaccination, and antibiotics. He is one of the most public faces of the scientific consensus that vaccines have no association with autism.



Remarks by Dr. Offit: 


Which will do more harm, the virus or the fear of the virus?

Why are we so scared of the novel coronavirus, COVID-19? People are usually scared of viruses for three reasons:

One: the virus causes gruesome, disfiguring, permanent symptoms. Smallpox, for example, not only caused life-long facial scarring, it also was a frequent cause of blindness in those who survived.

Two: the virus has a predilection for children. Polio paralyzed tens of thousands of young children every year until a vaccine finally eliminated the disease from the United States.

Three: the virus is likely to kill you. Rabies kills virtually 100 percent of people who develop symptoms after a bite from a rabid animal.

The novel coronavirus currently circulating in the United States—the one that has caused us to shut down schools, restaurants, sporting events, and virtually every aspect of our culture—falls into none of these categories. Nonetheless, people are scared. Really scared. The reason is they think that if they catch COVID-19, they have a high likelihood of dying from the disease. Most public health officials have done little to lessen this fear, arguing that people are ten times more likely to die from this novel coronavirus than from influenza. Unfortunately, these officials haven’t made clear the difference between relative risk and absolute risk. Although people are more likely to die from COVID-19 than from influenza, they are far more likely to catch influenza. Therefore, they are far more likely to die from influenza.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, as of March 7, 2020, 36 million to 51 million people have suffered from influenza, 370,000 to 670,000 have been hospitalized, and 22,000 to 55,000 have died from the disease. To put these numbers in perspective, let’s look at countries that have dealt with COVID-19.

China, where COVID-19 originated, has reported roughly 3,000 deaths. The population of China is about 1.4 billion, three times greater than ours. If we suffer an equivalent proportion of deaths, then 1,000 Americans will die from COVID-19, one-twentieth to one-fiftieth of the number who have died from influenza.

Italy has reported roughly 2,000 deaths from COVID-19 and, as a result, has shut down the country; only grocery stores and pharmacies remain open. Italy has a population of 60 million, about one-fifth of the U.S. population. If we suffer an equivalent proportion of deaths, then 10,000 Americans will die of COVID-19, about one-half to one-fifth of the number of deaths from influenza.

Not everyone, however, is at equal risk of dying. The virus primarily kills the elderly and those suffering from chronic diseases, which explains the situation in Italy, where 25 percent of its population is more than 65 years of age; in the U.S. it’s 16 percent. Wouldn’t it make more sense, then, to ask people who are elderly and infirm to stay away from crowds, thus lessening their chances of contracting the disease. Also, to ask people who are sick with respiratory symptoms to stay home. Focus on common sense things like washing hands several times a day and standing clear of people who are coughing or sneezing. The federal government can also help by making it easier for businesses to allow people who are ill to stay home.

In 2009-2010, the world suffered an influenza pandemic caused by swine flu; about 203,000 people were killed by the virus; 12,000 in the United States. The novel coronavirus has killed about 6,000 people to date; 62 in the United States. It doesn’t make sense to shut down our entire way of life to try and stop a virus that is unlikely to harm healthy people and will be far less devastating than the influenza epidemics that we experience every winter and the influenza pandemic we experienced ten years ago. Let’s take common sense measures to stop the spread. The precautionary principle dictates caution to prevent harm. But the precautionary principle also dictates that you don’t cause harm in the name of preventing harm. It will take years to recover from the draconian measures that we are currently instituting.









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okie smokie

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2020, 04:00:39 PM »

Here is the madness from my viewpoint:  I am 84 and a retired physician, (internist), I have some bronchial scarring from lobar pneumonia in the distant past, which allows me to collect a little more mucous now and then. I just had a malignant melanoma removed from my arm with a distant lymph node taken from under my arm. Fortunately there was no evidence of spread (never guaranteed with melanoma). Had a major heart bypass in 2015, and doing well from that. Have moderately reduced kidney function as well. Now I have revealed all that because for me, this virus could easily be deadly. And if not, deadly I may wish I were dead trying to recover.
  My wife is 83, has had a long history of atrial fib/flutter for 15 years in spite of a strong heart otherwise. She just had so many episodes and failed ablations, that in early Feb, she had surgery to give her complete heart block (permanent) and a pacemaker to keep her heart at a good rate. She should be good to go now for 6-7 or more years before she needs to replace the battery.   Also, any respiratory virus always results in weeks of around the clock coughing, no sleep, and frequent bronchitis.  She, too, is likely not to do well with this virus.

  So for us, when they say most people will recover, and the very young may often be asymptomatic, and that only the elderly and compromised are at risk--I say to myself "what do you mean 'only'"   It's like they are saying, its no big thing otherwise.  WELL IT IS FOR THOSE OF US AT THE MOST RISK.  Therefore, I do not think it is overkill to be extra careful around others or to stay at home if you don't need to be out. Our old friend Woodrow Wilson did not know what a virus was in 1917 and put our soldiers on ships to join WWI in spite of advice from the experts not to do so.  Thousands of them died before reaching Europe and many more died after.  Well we know better now.  So pay attention. Overcaution is much better than under caution. Now try to tell my grandchildren (out of school early) that they should not come to visit for a while. They don't know what all the anxiety is about. That is what we are up against.  :2cents:
 
PS:  I generally agree with Dr. Offit. But this virus is entirely different from Influenza from the standpoint of transmissibility.  Influenza victims are estimated to on average infect 19 others, while the coronavirus victims infect as many as 45.  Not sure how these numbers were calculated, but bottom line; Coronavirus is significantly more easily transmitted.  Even from asymptomatic victims.  There will be much higher number of cases than we will ever document, and while that means the fatality rate is probably lower than measured, the number of deaths will still be significant. As they say in medicine: The mortality rate may be low, but if it happens to you, that is 100% for you.  Don't panic, but follow the CDC's advise.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 04:20:00 PM by okie smokie »
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Trooper

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2020, 04:26:53 PM »

I too am at risk Dr. okie smokie. I have cancer and may need further treatments soon.
As my neighbor was lamenting about things, I said sarcastically, "I might just as well go home, get in bed and die".
And we could tell our brothers out on patrol and the First Responders "STAY HOME" You'll be at risk out there!. & the great Drs. as well.
Fortunately, It ain't gonna happen. They'll be out there on the front lines.

& finally, I feel that I don't want to let my medical issues get in the way of my enjoying life.

Oh yes, great comments by Paul Offit.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 05:38:24 PM by Trooper »
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okie smokie

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2020, 04:42:58 PM »

Well said Trooper.  I have had a long and productive life, so leaving this orb is not my fear at all.  But the prospect of how I will leave it with CV is not appealing.  In the meantime, I will continue to fix the plumbing, replace the filters, help shop for food, and grill/smoke the good meats.  What more could you ask for?
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Trooper

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2020, 05:37:48 PM »

What more could we ask for?
A few more people you Dr. Okie (and your attitude!)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 05:40:09 PM by Trooper »
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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2020, 06:24:11 PM »

Good luck shopping for food, the wife went out this morning to buy some vegetables and none were to be had, fresh or frozen. It's a good thing that I'm carnivorous, both freezers are loaded with smoked meat.  :cool:
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Kristin Meredith

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2020, 08:53:56 PM »

I guess I just think that if everyone stays home and self-quarantines for 2 to 3 weeks (which is now being floated by the CDC, a "national mandatory quarantine of 2 weeks):  there is no food on grocery shelves, there are no warehouses with food in them, no food production lines for meats, cheese, other staples; there are no doctors or nurses working, there are no pharmacies working, no military out there, no police, fire and rescue.  Workers in low paying jobs at WalMart and fast food don't get paychecks because they aren't working, don't feed their families. What does Trooper's daughter and her employees do for income for the duration and how do their families live?

Sorry, but this is how food riots and complete civil breakdown happen. Not everyone lives in a nice comfortable world where they have food in the freezer and a retirement income coming in. People in certain age brackets and with certain health issues need to do what they feel comfortable doing to protect themselves, but I don't think it is prudent to ask the world to stop -- it just can't without some significant risks and damage to society.  I know it sounds harsh, but if the grankids need to stay away for a month, that is the sacrifice one makes for one's health.  But to shut down society is basically inviting financial collapse and chaos. https://www.yahoo.com/news/people-lining-buy-guns-because-153245983.html

People just need to act prudently, but still exist and carry on. I may be killed in a car accident tomorrow.  That would be a 100% fail for me, but I don't stop driving.  I just drive carefully.  There was a front line news story yesterday -- "Globally 5,000 have died from COVID-19". That would be from the start about Dec. 1, 2019.  Gee, globally 153,000 die every day -- yes, that's right, every day. So COVI-19 is responsible for about 50 deaths per day and the other 153,000 die from something else.  And guess what, the world did not stop when those 153,000 per day were dying. We need to get a grip as a society or we can do ourselves in with panic and fear.

And I went to the grocery store today -- breads, milk, cheese, meats, fresh fruits and veggies, lots of stuff on shelves (not TP or hand sanitizers)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 09:06:06 PM by Kristin Meredith »
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ofelles

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2020, 01:02:48 PM »

Bentley, at least you an have meetings.  Here, no more than 10 people can gather.  Plus the churches and schools are closed.  I am concerned for some of our brothers and sisters!  Opening up my house if need be.
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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2020, 01:57:49 PM »

Part of me wonders(not trying to be a conspiracy theorist) if all these cancellations are a means to reduce/eliminate liability of entities holding gatherings more so than just for the "common good". If someone's uncle went to an NBA game, caught the virus there, and died, could the league and the team be sued?
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Kristin Meredith

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2020, 02:08:36 PM »

I haven't studied the legal issues, but as a retired attorney, I can guarantee attorneys all over the place are advising clients to shut things down so they won't be sued.  Not always the best thing for society.
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Bentley

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2020, 03:52:26 PM »

Short lived, the Church that 3 of my meetings are held at decided last night that there will be no more meetings till further notice.  So...Tonight, there is a meeting at the Ruritan Club, so I will go there tonight and probably find that it is closed too!  If that happens it is off to the ABC...!

I am just kidding.  We are not a glum lot!  I do feel for the Newcommer right now.  Need to figure out how to stay in contact with them!


Bentley, at least you an have meetings.  Here, no more than 10 people can gather.  Plus the churches and schools are closed.  I am concerned for some of our brothers and sisters!  Opening up my house if need be.
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ofelles

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2020, 12:44:30 PM »

A number of people here are setting up conference calls and using sype (sp) to meet.  Speaker tapes:  https://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=category&id=1
Interesting times.
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Kristin Meredith

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2020, 07:32:58 AM »

This was the most unbelievable things I have read in a while.

From a Yahoo news story on a poll of American conduct and perceptions about COVID-19:

"Seventy-nine percent of respondents said drastic headlines about how society is changing is the No. 1 reason they are fearful. Seventy-eight percent said they are primarily scared because of the deluge of news about people fighting over products at the grocery store; 75% pointed to the constant stream of reactions to the outbreak on social media.

“It’s the kerosene on the fire of the news cycle. Every hour, some news event is coming out — that’s creating a lot of fear and anxiety among Americans. We’ve never had a crisis in America with the sophistication of social media in this participative way, amplifying fear. Social media can also amplify good news when it comes, but there doesn’t seem to be good news yet,” said John Gerzema, CEO of The Harris Poll."

The reason I find it unbelievable is that Yahoo, which is reporting this, is also one of the biggest offenders with a constant stream of screaming headlines which are often inacurrate or sensationalized.  And then they make a story out of their own conduct!  I hope people just start getting sick of this whole media hype, calm down, and realize this is not the zombie apocalypse.  Our politicians also need to calm down and quit stoking the fires or we are going to destroy our whole economy.
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hughver

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2020, 12:47:29 PM »

Kristin, I agree that the buying frenzy is perpetuated by the media over reaction. However in this environment, an individual family is forced to participate to some degree for survival.
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Kristin Meredith

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Re: Over the cliff
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2020, 02:01:54 PM »

Kristin, I agree that the buying frenzy is perpetuated by the media over reaction. However in this environment, an individual family is forced to participate to some degree for survival.

I am more irritated at the media.  They are just so into grabbing headlines that they don't care that they are creating fear.  I read an article yesterday which interviewed several major food processing plants, producers, grocery chains, etc.  They claim there is plenty of food in distribution centers and in the production pipeline, but they can't get it out fast enough because of the stock piling mentality -- which to me is being driven by the media.  Total lack of responsible journalism at every level.
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