Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Yes.

No.

[Bentley]

When I order the Beef from these different meat companies, I am trying to come up with some criteria I can use to put the eating to some practical use for Members.  I am not sure how to do this in a Objective way.  Taste is so subjective that it will just have to be my thoughts, and you will just have to accept them for what they are. 

But lets take tenderness.  I will pose this question to you...is tenderness the same as texture/mouth feel?  And since even Beef we buy on a regular basis from the same location can change, how do we establish those criteria?  Or can they even be established?

Are there other things you look for in Beef?  And of the things you look for, do you look for the same thing in every cut?

 

[02ebz06]

I don't have a clue. So I guess I have to say no.

I agree, taste is very subjective.
As for tenderness, how do you determine? Swallow after 5 chews, 10 chews, or ? ? ?  And I have no idea what "mouth feel" is.

Only thing I look for is any marbling and nice red color.
Of course supermarkets pull on over on you there for the color.
They take yesterdays meat from case that has browned, flip it over and re-wrap it so it's nice and red for today.

I think any tests, whatever they might be, need to be done without any seasoning.

[Bar-B-Lew]

I think marbling is the only thing that has a standard based on how they rate select, choice, and prime.  Not sure you can be objective about much anything else.  Even that is a bit subjective as you can look at their grading photos and attempt to compare your cut to it.

I don't care about color.  I can't tell you how many brown looking steaks I ate as a kid as it was 2-3 per week.  I prefer buying brown versus red because it costs less if you get the reduced price sticker on the package.

Maybe for tenderness, it can be how the knife went through the cut.  Did it slice just by pulling the knife back or did you have to saw to get it to cut?  This assumes you have a sharp knife and keep it sharp from cut to cut or steak to steak.

If you give us enough assessments about how you felt about eating a particular item versus another and why you felt that way, I think we are smart enough to get a sense for making our own assessment based on the information.

[Kristin Meredith]

I think of mouth feel as texture.  I always think of overcooked liver and how it can taste like you are eating sawdust.  Guess same could be said if a piece of meat had a lot of gristle.

[Hank D Thoreau]

Food science is a well established discipline. There are probably criteria already in place for this.

My wife just finished her first level wine certification. There were some interesting flavor experiments involved that helped explain differences in our tastes.

There are well established points systems associated with wine. I would not be surprised to find similar criteria for other food products.

Whether they are completely objective is the question. But then, would you rather have a well defined partially subjective/partially objective criteria, or rely on completely objective measures, in other words, things you can measure like fat content.

My wife also used to work in the beverage industry where tasters were key to maintaining product consistency. They knew how to break flavor down to its component parts and recognize subtle differences.

I think the key is tapping into the knowledge in this field. It may take a bit of study, but the knowledge gained will help improve your understanding and appreciation of the ingredients you use, just like it did for my wife with wine.

[dk117]

I declined to vote as I see the conundrum. 

a) my cousin is a sensory engineer at a cheese factory.   there are very specific criteria for her job, and it basically amounts to her eating cheese and grading it.
b) without a sensory engineer at PelletFan's disposal, we're going to have to accept your comments for what they are.   Conversely, you were a KCBS judge?  Maybe you're being too hard on yourself?  I suspect you getting two tri tips of same grade from different companies, we'd value what we're calling your subjective comments. 

DK

[urnmor]

IMO I think this will be very hard to do subjectively.  I would recommend a blind test and to be successful you will need the same size steak in thickness and in quality with the same rub and cooked to the same temp.  Also IMO you can the cook however those doing the tasting should not be around when you are cooking or have any preconceived notion of the quality.  Then take the steaks off rest them carve them and serve them without comment to your guess and ask for feed back. 

Looking forward to the results

[Bar-B-Lew]

IMO I think this will be very hard to do subjectively.  I would recommend a blind test and to be successful you will need the same size steak in thickness and in quality with the same rub and cooked to the same temp.  Also IMO you can the cook however those doing the tasting should not be around when you are cooking or have any preconceived notion of the quality.  Then take the steaks off rest them carve them and serve them without comment to your guess and ask for feed back. 

Looking forward to the results

That may be a challenge as I think Bentley intends to cook and eat as part of his purpose is to eat the meats that he is cooking.  He's just offering to share his thoughts with us and is attempting to find a good method.  I am beginning to become concerned that he will decide to ditch the idea because we are attempting to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

[Kristin Meredith]

Well, I will also be eating and have never had a problem expressing my thoughts, whether they are encouraged or not!  So, you always have me to fall back on!

[Canadian John]

 For me, Moisture. Must be juicy.      Texture/tenderness. A pleasant chew,  and the proverbial taste, subjective as it may be.

 As we are not all programmed alike, there will be no right answer.

[urnmor]

That may be a challenge as I think Bentley intends to cook and eat as part of his purpose is to eat the meats that he is cooking.  He's just offering to share his thoughts with us and is attempting to find a good method.  I am beginning to become concerned that he will decide to ditch the idea because we are attempting to make this more complicated than it needs to be.
[/quote]

I understand that however if the tester has preconceived notions on the brand etc the test IMO will be biased.  Again just my opinion and he did ask for objective opinions.

[Bentley]

If we were trying to be as scientific as possible, urnmor observations would be the best way, and that is exactly the way it should be done.  It is just not possible.  Back in the days of Pelletheads and being Southern California it would have been easy to come up with a panel!

[Big Bear]

When I order the Beef from these different meat companies, I am trying to come up with some criteria I can use to put the eating to some practical use for Members.  I am not sure how to do this in a Objective way.  Taste is so subjective that it will just have to be my thoughts, and you will just have to accept them for what they are. 

But lets take tenderness.  I will pose this question to you...is tenderness the same as texture/mouth feel?  And since even Beef we buy on a regular basis from the same location can change, how do we establish those criteria?  Or can they even be established?

Are there other things you look for in Beef?  And of the things you look for, do you look for the same thing in every cut?

I voted no as I don't believe you can objectively quantify beef..your example tenderness... I find tongue to be tender but the texture/mouth feel is too mushy for me....brisket is tender with a great texture/mouth feel..

[Hank D Thoreau]

I think the value of this thread is spending some time thinking through the evaluation process prior to doing the experiment. Often revelations occur while doing the experiment; things you wished you had thought of before you started.

You end up refining the criteria as you go. That is hard to avoid. That is why experiments mature as you repeat them, incorporating lessons learned from previous iterations.

But we don't do this for a living, so it is useful to try to plan criteria as best as possible before hand. There may not be an opportunity for an iterative improvement process.

And what better way to plan than to tap into the collective knowledge of subject matter experts on this forum, as well as the target audience for the results, also on this forum.

This comes down to: "can do", "should do" and "will do" options.

There are a lot of things that are possible to do. Not all are valuable, but, they can be done. These fall in the "can do" category.

Of all the "can do" options, some will prove to strongly support your objective, and thus, should be done. These are the "should do" options.

Going from should to will is where constraints are applied. Constraints are time, money, available equipment, knowledge, desire and others. This is where you pick the options you are actually going to use.

We are going through this process here. So rather than thinking about this as over complicating, think about it as a constructive discussion and analysis of what can be done, what should be done, and ultimately, what will be done.

Obviously, Bentley will make the decision on what will be done, but this discussion could help.